IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW

"Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com> Fri, 05 April 2019 11:59 UTC

Return-Path: <pthubert@cisco.com>
X-Original-To: paw@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: paw@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E92C1203EC for <paw@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 5 Apr 2019 04:59:07 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -14.489
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.489 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=d31N1OYF; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=Sc4yT1TZ
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L7krYffHWCLq for <paw@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 5 Apr 2019 04:59:03 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A12B71203E7 for <paw@ietf.org>; Fri, 5 Apr 2019 04:59:03 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=27080; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1554465543; x=1555675143; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=SDrzR672N6LlveMn0wCpE0TXUHDQgAYdywwOyySo0o4=; b=d31N1OYF2AYkT7nsFFartc/dn1qoi1JTVvCLKtpV9FnLZOe/9AHE9cWO mn+wPDQAow7NvhOoXpIlKDjG0fUl8XyBD1y2b91n/u7H2cRhEUyUUatVM ZfH54gxQGRlGAgzOq+PmIi7evVGjTcUFAh1uS6QwdK41HL9OqenD5Vr0P 0=;
IronPort-PHdr: 9a23:BTZ3LRQttvVdwJtSbyAhkktxwtpsv++ubAcI9poqja5Pea2//pPkeVbS/uhpkESXBNfA8/wRje3QvuigQmEG7Zub+FE6OJ1XH15g640NmhA4RsuMCEn1NvnvOjQmHNlIWUV513q6KkNSXs35Yg6arw==
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BEAQAEQqdc/5pdJa1lGgEBAQEBAgEBAQEHAgEBAQGBZYEPL1ADaFQgBAsnCoQEg0cDjyaCV5cYglIDVA4BARgBBwyEQAIXhTwiOBIBAQMBAQkBAwJtHAyFSgEBAQIBAQEBIQoTAQEHJAELAQQHBgEIEQQBASgDAgQlCxQJCQEEAQ0FCIMbgRFMAw0IAQIMpAkCihRxgS+CeQEBBYFDQ4MCGIIMCIEwhGCGVReBQD+BEUaBTn4+gmEBAQEBAReBSQUHCRYJCIJMMYImjRGEKodcjGEJAogBgSeKcYIFklCLU4YejVkCBAIEBQIOAQEFgWYhNYEhcBU7gmwJggGDXRKEcCSFP3IBgSeOIwGBHwEB
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.60,312,1549929600"; d="scan'208,217";a="254169532"
Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 05 Apr 2019 11:59:02 +0000
Received: from XCH-ALN-012.cisco.com (xch-aln-012.cisco.com [173.36.7.22]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x35Bx203015113 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Apr 2019 11:59:02 GMT
Received: from xhs-rcd-002.cisco.com (173.37.227.247) by XCH-ALN-012.cisco.com (173.36.7.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Fri, 5 Apr 2019 06:59:01 -0500
Received: from xhs-rcd-002.cisco.com (173.37.227.247) by xhs-rcd-002.cisco.com (173.37.227.247) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Fri, 5 Apr 2019 06:59:00 -0500
Received: from NAM03-BY2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (72.163.14.9) by xhs-rcd-002.cisco.com (173.37.227.247) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 5 Apr 2019 06:59:00 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-cisco-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=SDrzR672N6LlveMn0wCpE0TXUHDQgAYdywwOyySo0o4=; b=Sc4yT1TZVoKswku7VBk7oeV3Vl+uNqCuhsxhGUZwP9Qs1tos/VFBkwbDedJF+byYMinFitZWPJvJimg47dFerWPcoLi2XaBKAqQCoAGTpTILF3r+9sgVKxI2VpjuR3rdwrfs5515chLGABOYmSPaU+LY1c3R/Ce+T5YHiSPC/io=
Received: from MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (20.178.250.159) by MN2PR11MB3871.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (10.255.180.204) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1750.16; Fri, 5 Apr 2019 11:58:58 +0000
Received: from MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::975:4644:7891:e2b1]) by MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::975:4644:7891:e2b1%3]) with mapi id 15.20.1750.017; Fri, 5 Apr 2019 11:58:58 +0000
From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>
To: "Prof. Diego Dujovne" <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl>, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>
CC: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "paw@ietf.org" <paw@ietf.org>, "Venkatesan, Ganesh" <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr>
Thread-Topic: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW
Thread-Index: AdTrpsdF3Li+md87Quusw1UCvwnN/A==
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2019 11:58:46 +0000
Deferred-Delivery: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 11:58:44 +0000
Message-ID: <MN2PR11MB356551AD88735208E1EEEBC2D8510@MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=pthubert@cisco.com;
x-originating-ip: [173.38.220.55]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b3b41996-d2f6-4042-70ee-08d6b9be1646
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(5600139)(711020)(4605104)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:MN2PR11MB3871;
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB3871:
x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 8
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <MN2PR11MB3871E9DC0BE5C25A2CC1766FD8510@MN2PR11MB3871.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
x-forefront-prvs: 0998671D02
x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(39860400002)(396003)(366004)(376002)(346002)(136003)(189003)(199004)(13464003)(110136005)(14444005)(6436002)(81166006)(966005)(7696005)(4326008)(53546011)(54906003)(9686003)(606006)(6246003)(5660300002)(66574012)(256004)(55016002)(53386004)(26005)(476003)(74316002)(6666004)(236005)(6306002)(97736004)(186003)(54896002)(229853002)(7736002)(6506007)(105586002)(106356001)(8676002)(71200400001)(6116002)(71190400001)(14454004)(53936002)(486006)(102836004)(33656002)(99286004)(316002)(790700001)(81156014)(3846002)(25786009)(2906002)(52536014)(5070765005)(68736007)(86362001)(478600001)(66066001)(8936002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:MN2PR11MB3871; H:MN2PR11MB3565.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1;
received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: cisco.com does not designate permitted sender hosts)
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: kpuE8D35SOzXBefJdsMsvDWbb2QNDtfZdKpiwutBNs+ceyRN7++rUJkcpkjauvldsiu1oeJLrnK8F3Ijldo/3K+Q2NvQYQ4ntYubjRRhbiuoYgDbbCuIQbtI4U498gkP+ASQC9vvMbKMJ9qSP4T4oOsJUoaPqOPV+NaGfqNe897W5d0YkMy/BfiafvdJhWPaIjO9FlS2w7KkVFtbOnvaj9WlT30KLhwOsKqYHxh2qEz/ynEwF83D2VzWmbTDR++BtchkWbYdnaoFMzjjF9B93v0YNmpelf/FUCzQed4L7sLSDb//GFMi906nkPgWuGdu1Jp5I6U2TbVIGDQgiIcGmigU2uHQjfQw66DbCtsar1af8Z1sQWvvmKw/WYHtprwG2ZTIgBRr9PouBj4oQumbSRqi0uolu8eWjy174rVBJTc=
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_MN2PR11MB356551AD88735208E1EEEBC2D8510MN2PR11MB3565namp_"
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b3b41996-d2f6-4042-70ee-08d6b9be1646
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Apr 2019 11:58:58.6752 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB3871
X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com
X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.22, xch-aln-012.cisco.com
X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-3.cisco.com
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/paw/FLsQHAtK8GUzKZcMjODjrYBbZCU>
Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW
X-BeenThere: paw@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: predictable and available wireless <paw.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/paw>, <mailto:paw-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/paw/>
List-Post: <mailto:paw@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:paw-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw>, <mailto:paw-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2019 11:59:07 -0000

Votes are still open. Do we keep SPAWN or do we jump to RAW.
What does sound right, a SPAWN or a RAW Network?

All the best,

Pascal

From: Paw <paw-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Prof. Diego Dujovne
Sent: vendredi 5 avril 2019 13:51
To: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>
Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>; paw@ietf.org; Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>; Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr>
Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming

Pascal,
           Shall we split this e-mail between the renaming
topic and the reliability metrics discussion? I think both
items are really relevant to the group and deserve their
individual space.
Regards,

                             Diego Dujovne

Le ven. 5 avr. 2019 à 07:03, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com<mailto:Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>> a écrit :

There is a good book on reliability by Michael Tortorella. The book is "Reliability, Maintainability, and Supportability: Best Practices for Systems Engineers". It is available from Wiley.

Hesham



-----Original Message-----
From: Paw [mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 1:55 AM
To: Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr<mailto:jch@irif.fr>>
Cc: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net<mailto:lberger@labn.net>>; paw@ietf.org<mailto:paw@ietf.org>; Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com<mailto:ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>>
Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming



Hello Juliusz:



Actually the theoretical work has been done a while ago, as  a response to your question at the mike when I suggested you dig for MTBF or similar (MTTF, MTBE...). We tend to express a network form of MTBF in a number of 9s. Like five 9s would indicate that the Mean Successful Transmissions Between Errors is 99999. A number of use cases would thrive on 1% loss as long as losses are always well spaced so the missing points can be recovered. This can be true for an industrial control loop, and false for burning a master video. The N 9s are there to make the occurrence of P (say, 4) losses in a row very rare, like a probability of 1/10^(N*P). But the 9s are for unrelated errors and fail to convey a rare burst of errors with a common cause, which is what really hurts. These things happen on radios and that's why we are after diverse paths etc..



There's enough stats for is in https://ftp.automationdirect.com/pub/Product%20Reliability%20and%20MTBF.pdf to take us a long way. Our problem is to migrate the concept from a product to a sequence of nodes and then to more complex structures. This could be refined in an academic paper, I expect that'd be a great topic, and then an RFC would summarize that.



What I'd like to see is an informational RFC that presents wireless reliability in a way that can be consumed by the IETF members, and provides terminology that can be referred in our specs. You seemed curious about the topic; that's quality number one for achieving great results : )



All the best,



Pascal



More links:

http://www.bb-elec.com/Learning-Center/All-White-Papers/Fiber/MTBF,-MTTR,-MTTF,-FIT-Explanation-of-Terms/MTBF-MTTR-MTTF-FIT-10262012-pdf.pdf

https://books.google.nl/books?id=rNLSBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=reliability+MTBF+MTBE+papers&source=bl&ots=L7BsInfaO3&sig=ACfU3U0kYd1lGRyRR_aD5AET9LOI8ZfZWg&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwisr-LirLjhAhWPZ1AKHe8yARwQ6AEwA3oECAgQAQ



https://www.dfrsolutions.com/blog/the-challenges-of-wireless-reliability<https://www..dfrsolutions.com/blog/the-challenges-of-wireless-reliability>

















> -----Original Message-----

> From: Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr<mailto:jch@irif.fr>>

> Sent: vendredi 5 avril 2019 01:40

> To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com<mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>

> Cc: Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com<mailto:ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>>; Lou Berger

> <lberger@labn.net<mailto:lberger@labn.net>>; paw@ietf.org<mailto:paw@ietf.org>

> Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming

>

> > We'll also need to provide a definition of reliability and

> > availability and as we discussed, 5nines is probably not the only or

> > even best way to express any of that. Juliusz actually raised the

> > point and I hope he continues on that path and even produces a spec for us.

>

> I'm flattered you think so, but I'm pretty sure I'm not competent.

> You'd need someone with more of a background in probability and statistics.

>

> -- Juliusz



--

Paw mailing list

Paw@ietf.org<mailto:Paw@ietf.org>

https://www.ietf..org/mailman/listinfo/paw<https://www..ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw>
--
Paw mailing list
Paw@ietf.org<mailto:Paw@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw


--
DIEGO DUJOVNE
Profesor Asociado
Escuela de Informática y Telecomunicaciones
Facultad de Ingeniería - Universidad Diego Portales - Chile
www.ingenieria.udp.cl<http://www.ingenieria.udp.cl>
(56 2) 676 8125

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email