Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW

+1 for RAW, although I will miss the SPWAN's logo :-)

Georgios


> On Apr 5, 2019, at 14:33, Prof. Diego Dujovne <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl> wrote:
> 
> All,
>      Pascal's question just kept me thinking what a RAW network
> would look like. From the meaning of RAW, I think that what we
> are looking for is totally the opposite: A predictable behavior
> in terms of reliability and delay. If this is not taken into account,
> then RAW sounds simple and easy to remember. 
>      Regards,
> 
>                                 Diego
> 
> Le ven. 5 avr. 2019 à 09:21, Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr <mailto:theoleyre@unistra.fr>> a écrit :
> I have a slight preference for RAW.
> 
> Fabrice
> 
> 
>> Le 5 avr. 2019 à 14:19, Mukesh Taneja (mutaneja) <mutaneja@cisco.com <mailto:mutaneja@cisco..com>> a écrit :
>> 
>>  
>> I am for something like – SRAW with S from SPWAN (for Scheduled).
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Mukesh
>>  
>> From: Paw <paw-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Xavi Vilajosana Guillen <xvilajosana@uoc.edu <mailto:xvilajosana@uoc.edu>>
>> Date: Friday, 5 April 2019 at 5:42 PM
>> To: AUDEBERT Vincent <vincent.audebert@edf.fr <mailto:vincent.audebert@edf.fr>>
>> Cc: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com <mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr <mailto:jch@irif.fr>>, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com <mailto:Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>>, "Prof. Diego Dujovne" <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl <mailto:diego..dujovne@mail.udp.cl>>, "paw@ietf.org <mailto:paw@ietf.org>" <paw@ietf.org <mailto:paw@ietf.org>>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>, "Venkatesan, Ganesh" <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com <mailto:ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW
>>  
>> Same here. RAW is shorter and easier to spell. 
>>  
>> regards
>> Xavi
>>  
>> Missatge de AUDEBERT Vincent <vincent.audebert@edf.fr <mailto:vincent.audebert@edf.fr>> del dia dv., 5 d’abr. 2019 a les 14:01:
>> Hi Pascal, All,
>>  
>> I am in favor of RAW.
>>  
>> Regards
>>  
>> Vincent
>>  
>> <image001.png>
>>  
>> Vincent AUDEBERT
>> Research Engineer
>> EDF – R&D Lab Saclay
>> MIRE
>> 7 Bd Gaspard Monge
>> 91120 PALAISEAU
>>  
>> vincent.audebert@edf.fr <mailto:vincent.audebert@edf.fr>
>> Phone : + 33 1 78 19 45 64
>> Mobile : + 33 6 14 13 23 22
>> <image002.gif>    
>> Un geste simple pour l'environnement, n'imprimez ce message que si vous en avez l'utilité.
>>  
>>  
>> De : Paw [mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org>] De la part de pthubert@cisco.com <mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>
>> Envoyé : vendredi 5 avril 2019 13:59
>> À : Prof. Diego Dujovne <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl <mailto:diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl>>; Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com <mailto:Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>>
>> Cc : Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>; paw@ietf.org <mailto:paw@ietf.org>; Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr <mailto:jch@irif.fr>>; Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com <mailto:ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>>
>> Objet : Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW
>>  
>> Votes are still open. Do we keep SPAWN or do we jump to RAW.
>> What does sound right, a SPAWN or a RAW Network?
>>  
>> All the best,
>>  
>> Pascal
>>  
>> From: Paw <paw-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Prof. Diego Dujovne
>> Sent: vendredi 5 avril 2019 13:51
>> To: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com <mailto:Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>>
>> Cc: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com <mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>; Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>;paw@ietf.org <mailto:paw@ietf.org>; Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com <mailto:ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>>; Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr <mailto:jch@irif.fr>>
>> Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming
>>  
>> Pascal,
>>            Shall we split this e-mail between the renaming
>> topic and the reliability metrics discussion? I think both
>> items are really relevant to the group and deserve their
>> individual space.
>> Regards,
>>  
>>                              Diego Dujovne
>>  
>> Le ven. 5 avr. 2019 à 07:03, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com <mailto:Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei..com>> a écrit :
>> There is a good book on reliability by Michael Tortorella. The book is "Reliability, Maintainability, and Supportability: Best Practices for Systems Engineers". It is available from Wiley.
>> 
>> Hesham
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Paw [mailto:paw-bounces@ietf..org <mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
>> Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 1:55 AM
>> To: Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr <mailto:jch@irif.fr>>
>> Cc: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>; paw@ietf.org <mailto:paw@ietf.org>; Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com <mailto:ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Hello Juliusz:
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Actually the theoretical work has been done a while ago, as  a response to your question at the mike when I suggested you dig for MTBF or similar (MTTF, MTBE...). We tend to express a network form of MTBF in a number of 9s. Like five 9s would indicate that the Mean Successful Transmissions Between Errors is 99999. A number of use cases would thrive on 1% loss as long as losses are always well spaced so the missing points can be recovered. This can be true for an industrial control loop, and false for burning a master video. The N 9s are there to make the occurrence of P (say, 4) losses in a row very rare, like a probability of 1/10^(N*P). But the 9s are for unrelated errors and fail to convey a rare burst of errors with a common cause, which is what really hurts. These things happen on radios and that's why we are after diverse paths etc...
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> There's enough stats for is inhttps://ftp.automationdirect.com/pub/Product%20Reliability%20and%20MTBF.pdf <https://ftp.automationdirect.com/pub/Product%20Reliability%20and%20MTBF.pdf> to take us a long way. Our problem is to migrate the concept from a product to a sequence of nodes and then to more complex structures. This could be refined in an academic paper, I expect that'd be a great topic, and then an RFC would summarize that.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> What I'd like to see is an informational RFC that presents wireless reliability in a way that can be consumed by the IETF members, and provides terminology that can be referred in our specs. You seemed curious about the topic; that's quality number one for achieving great results : )
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> All the best,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Pascal
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> More links:
>> 
>> http://www.bb-elec.com/Learning-Center/All-White-Papers/Fiber/MTBF,-MTTR,-MTTF,-FIT-Explanation-of-Terms/MTBF-MTTR-MTTF-FIT-10262012-pdf.pdf <http://www.bb-elec.com/Learning-Center/All-White-Papers/Fiber/MTBF,-MTTR,-MTTF,-FIT-Explanation-of-Terms/MTBF-MTTR-MTTF-FIT-10262012-pdf.pdf>
>> https://books.google.nl/books?id=rNLSBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=reliability+MTBF+MTBE+papers&source=bl&ots=L7BsInfaO3&sig=ACfU3U0kYd1lGRyRR_aD5AET9LOI8ZfZWg&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwisr-LirLjhAhWPZ1AKHe8yARwQ6AEwA3oECAgQAQ <https://books.google.nl/books?id=rNLSBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=reliability+MTBF+MTBE+papers&source=bl&ots=L7BsInfaO3&sig=ACfU3U0kYd1lGRyRR_aD5AET9LOI8ZfZWg&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwisr-LirLjhAhWPZ1AKHe8yARwQ6AEwA3oECAgQAQ>
>>  
>> 
>> https://www.dfrsolutions.com/blog/the-challenges-of-wireless-reliability <https://www..dfrsolutions.com/blog/the-challenges-of-wireless-reliability>
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> 
>> > From: Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr <mailto:jch@irif.fr>>
>> 
>> > Sent: vendredi 5 avril 2019 01:40
>> 
>> > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com <mailto:pthubert@cisco.com>>
>> 
>> > Cc: Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com <mailto:ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>>; Lou Berger 
>> 
>> > <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>; paw@ietf.org <mailto:paw@ietf.org>
>> > Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming
>> 
>> >
>> 
>> > > We'll also need to provide a definition of reliability and
>> 
>> > > availability and as we discussed, 5nines is probably not the only or
>> 
>> > > even best way to express any of that. Juliusz actually raised the
>> 
>> > > point and I hope he continues on that path and even produces a spec for us.
>> 
>> >
>> 
>> > I'm flattered you think so, but I'm pretty sure I'm not competent. 
>> 
>> > You'd need someone with more of a background in probability and statistics.
>> 
>> >
>> 
>> > -- Juliusz
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Paw mailing list
>> 
>> Paw@ietf.org <mailto:Paw@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf..org/mailman/listinfo/paw <https://www...ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw>
>> -- 
>> Paw mailing list
>> Paw@ietf.org <mailto:Paw@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw>
>> 
>>  
>> --
>> DIEGO DUJOVNE
>> Profesor Asociado
>> Escuela de Informática y Telecomunicaciones
>> Facultad de Ingeniería - Universidad Diego Portales - Chile
>> www.ingenieria.udp.cl <http://www.ingenieria.udp.cl/>
>> (56 2) 676 8125
>> 
>> Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes (ci-après le 'Message') sont établis à l'intention exclusive des destinataires et les informations qui y figurent sont strictement confidentielles. Toute utilisation de ce Message non conforme à sa destination, toute diffusion ou toute publication totale ou partielle, est interdite sauf autorisation expresse.
>> 
>> Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire de ce Message, il vous est interdit de le copier, de le faire suivre, de le divulguer ou d'en utiliser tout ou partie. Si vous avez reçu ce Message par erreur, merci de le supprimer de votre système, ainsi que toutes ses copies, et de n'en garder aucune trace sur quelque support que ce soit. Nous vous remercions également d'en avertir immédiatement l'expéditeur par retour du message.
>> 
>> Il est impossible de garantir que les communications par messagerie électronique arrivent en temps utile, sont sécurisées ou dénuées de toute erreur ou virus.
>> ____________________________________________________
>> 
>> This message and any attachments (the 'Message') are intended solely for the addressees. The information contained in this Message is confidential.. Any use of information contained in this Message not in accord with its purpose, any dissemination or disclosure, either whole or partial, is prohibited except formal approval.
>> 
>> If you are not the addressee, you may not copy, forward, disclose or use any part of it. If you have received this message in error, please delete it and all copies from your system and notify the sender immediately by return message.
>> 
>> E-mail communication cannot be guaranteed to be timely secure, error or virus-free.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Paw mailing list
>> Paw@ietf.org <mailto:Paw@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw>
>> 
>>  
>> -- 
>> Dr. Xavier Vilajosana
>> Wireless Networks Lab
>> Internet Interdisciplinary Institute (IN3)
>> Professor
>> (+34) 646 633 681
>> xvilajosana@uoc.edu <mailto:usuari@uoc.edu>
>> http://xvilajosana.org <http://xvilajosana.org/>
>> http://wine.rdi.uoc.edu <http://wine.rdi..uoc.edu/>
>> Parc Mediterrani de la Tecnologia 
>> Av Carl Friedrich Gauss 5, B3 Building
>> 08860 Castelldefels (Barcelona). Catalonia. Spain
>>   
>> -- 
>> Paw mailing list
>> Paw@ietf.org <mailto:Paw@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> DIEGO DUJOVNE
> Profesor Asociado
> Escuela de Informática y Telecomunicaciones
> Facultad de Ingeniería - Universidad Diego Portales - Chile
> www.ingenieria.udp.cl <http://www.ingenieria.udp.cl/>
> (56 2) 676 8125
> -- 
> Paw mailing list
> Paw@ietf.org <mailto:Paw@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw>