Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-paws-protocol-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Vincent Chen <vchen@google.com> Mon, 22 September 2014 07:17 UTC
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References: <20140820165236.31862.86067.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <CABEV9ROW=KhQDCU5=X+SrtPAAOwd0QgvKJh_-owQ4b1CvdNvog@mail.gmail.com> <D0388B73.57841%alissa@cooperw.in>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 00:16:56 -0700
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From: Vincent Chen <vchen@google.com>
To: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>
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Cc: "paws@ietf.org" <paws@ietf.org>, "paws-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <paws-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-paws-protocol@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-paws-protocol-14: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Alissa, Sorry for the delayed response. I've uploaded draft 18, incorporating your suggestions. I've simplified the text a bit, but, hopefully, it addresses your concerns. Please let me know what you think. http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-paws-protocol-18 Thanks. -vince On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 9:03 AM, Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote: > Hi Vincent, > > I’ve taken a look at the –17. Thanks for accommodating many of my DISCUSS > points. I have a one response below on a couple of remaining issues. > > On 8/21/14, 12:59 AM, "Vincent Chen" <vchen@google.com> wrote: > > > >> = Section 5.1 = >> I'd like to discuss why the single point location format needs to be >> supported here. Is it really the case that a portion of whitespace >> spectrum will ever be available only at a single point, as opposed to a >> region? If not, it seems like sending a point (and, moreover, allowing >> region to be unsupported but not point) divulges more precise information >> about the requesting device than is ever actually necessary to fulfill >> the goals of this protocol. Do regulators require a single point? Why? >> > > The resulting spectrum is valid for 100m (typically) radius around that > point. > > Computation of available spectrum for a region is actually complex and not > well defined... > > >> >> = Section 5.2 = >> I'd like to discuss why the device serial number needs to be included in >> the device descriptor, rather than some (perhaps persistent) randomly >> generated device identifier that is used only in the context of this >> protocol (which would better protect the privacy of the user of the >> device, since the whitespaces database administrator wouldn't be able to >> correlate the device's spectrum requests with other activities linked to >> the serial number). It's not really clear why serial number is collected >> since both this document and RFC 6953 note the protocol does not defend >> against abuse or mis-use of spectrum. >> > > The regulator want to have the ability to black list ranges of serial > numbers, if it > determines that a series was defective. The Databases must use the serial > number > to determine it can return available spectrum. > > >> >> I'm asking the above two questions in light of requirement P.7 from RFC >> 6953, "The PAWS protocol SHOULD support privacy-sensitive handling of >> device-provided data where such protection is feasible, allowed, and >> desired." >> >> A separate interesting question that does not seem to be addressed >> anywhere in the draft is whether a device can be fingerprinted by the >> database operator by virtue of the collection of elements it sends >> (rulesetIds, manufacturer, model, antenna characteristics, device >> capabilities, etc.) even if it doesn't send a serial number or device >> owner information that uniquely identify it. That seems worth discussion >> in Section 10. >> > > What should the discussion say? Just that it is possible? or does it need > to have a solution? > > > Now that the document is clear that Slave device location and serial > number are optional (unless required by a ruleset), I think the remaining > task on the above three points is to add a bit of text to Section 10 to > explain the potential privacy threats from authorized databases, perhaps as > a short paragraph or two at the end of Section 10. Something along these > lines (just a suggestion, feel free to reject this entirely or use bits > that you like): > > "In addition to the privacy risks described above, in some cases, users of > Master or Slave devices may open themselves up to privacy risks related to > the secondary use of PAWS-related information by a database administrator. > For example, in situations where rulesets require that Master or Slave > devices uniquely identify themselves (via the DeviceDescriptor or > DeviceOwner parameters), database administrators may be able to use that > information to track connectivity activity over time, or they may share > such tracking information with third parties. Where Master or Slave devices > choose to provide or are required to provide geolocation information in > conjunction with unique device identifiers, this capability may further > extent to location tracking. Even where a device does not provide a > specific unique identifier, a database administrator may be able to > uniquely fingerprint a device based on the combination of other information > provided in DeviceDescriptor or DeviceCapabilities parameters. > > In cases where devices have a choice to not send device-identifying > information or geolocation, or to send less granular geolocation (i.e., a > region rather than a point), PAWS implementations can reduce the risks > associated with secondary use by not sending that information. Where > rulesets require this information to be sent, these risks require > out-of-band mitigation (e.g., public statements or contractual terms > preventing secondary use).” > > Thanks, > Alissa > > > >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> COMMENT: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> = Shepherd write-up= >> "An in-depth review by a JSON expert might be useful." >> >> Did that happen? >> > > Tim Bray had looked at it before final call. > > >> >> = Section 1 = >> "It opens the door for innovations in spectrum >> management that can incorporate a variety of parameters, including >> user location and time. In the future, it also can include other >> parameters, such as user priority, time, signal type and power, >> spectrum supply and demand, payment or micro-auction bidding, and >> more." >> >> Time seems to be listed both as a current parameter and a future one, >> which is confusing. >> > > Agreed. The second "time" should be removed. > > >> >> = Section 4.4 = >> "FCC rules, for example, require that a 'Fixed Device' >> register its owner and operator contact information, its device >> identifier, its location, and its antenna height." >> >> It would be nice to have a citation for the rules referenced here. >> > > OK. > > >> >> = Section 5.1 = >> Feel free to ignore this if it's completely misguided, but does altitude >> really not matter? Are we sure this protocol won't be re-used for devices >> on airplanes trying to find available spectrum? (I note that in RFC 6953, >> requirement D.1 specifies that the data model must support "the height >> and its uncertainty" -- I have no idea what "the height" means or if it >> is related to altitude.) >> > > See Section 5.3 on "height" of the antenna. It's separated out, from the > "latitude, longitude" specification > of GeoLocation. It allows specification with respect to ground level or > mean sea level, and is intended > for Fixed devices, rather than mobile devices. > > From the current regulator's perspective, the allowed power for mobile > devices is low enough that > height does not matter. > > > >> >> = Section 10 = >> I agree with Stephen that the database operator should be considered as a >> potential adversary from the standpoint of potentially being able to >> create a fine-grained database that tracks the locations and spectrum use >> patterns of individual devices. That data could certainly be abused. >> >> > So just listing that as a potential threat and declare that fixing this as > out of scope is sufficient? > > Or do we need to state that Databases MUST not track? I can see how > anonymized tracking > can be useful for spectrum management in the future, much like anonymized > tracking of car locations > provide valuable traffic information for navigation systems. > > -- > -vince > > -- -vince
- [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-paws… Alissa Cooper
- [paws] Comment on draft-ietf-paws-protocol-14 Russ Housley
- Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-… Pete Resnick
- Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-… Vincent Chen
- Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-… Pete Resnick
- Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-… Pete Resnick
- Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-… Vincent Chen
- Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-… Gabor Bajko
- Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-… Vincent Chen
- Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-… Vincent Chen
- Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-… Pete Resnick
- Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-… Vincent Chen
- Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-… Pete Resnick
- Re: [paws] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on draft-ietf-… Vincent Chen