Re: [pim] draft-ietf-pim-multicast-lessons-learned-02 & BIDIR-PIM

Leonard Giuliano <lenny@juniper.net> Fri, 08 December 2023 18:30 UTC

Return-Path: <lenny@juniper.net>
X-Original-To: pim@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: pim@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04AACC490EB3 for <pim@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 8 Dec 2023 10:30:30 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -7.105
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b="oTm4Apxy"; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b="HtFfV3mn"
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G2Nq5S_EqtyK for <pim@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 8 Dec 2023 10:30:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com [67.231.152.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E447C490E98 for <pim@ietf.org>; Fri, 8 Dec 2023 10:30:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from pps.filterd (m0108163.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (8.17.1.19/8.17.1.19) with ESMTP id 3B87WwDZ011407; Fri, 8 Dec 2023 10:30:21 -0800
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=date : from : to : cc : subject : in-reply-to : message-id : references : mime-version : content-type; s=PPS1017; bh=pguc+5vJKyUKcyMdyv34MiTgtfLRiRhtIeG2M6yPY7E=; b=oTm4ApxyakVbWunCfR6M5ljuNaJsw1KjHNFv0L3NpxKhas1XlepLvLfeGirtR/cyvoBa w02H2mW0CZxT9FklprAZq+xpxZNLOA+J8wN1mCHShHMHIF6n1DA5kfz6+SwNJ7OWUXU3 WO4cSv6sfnWIkMjyU6w1Y1X2O0hKsN4ZJ8CQVrG+MsnWTH5z/g7jlWqK6vpCHfyXICIK oWBzj2Gtu5wHwVfwzmwF8dXlXzt0vSRbdiFw9sSQobyLdbs9eqdi75C9dxirAVib09MK FxTV8RQzkZb310yKtzrkiqak0QZ2zH/JjFZUt1IcQ0626M5ljTCyju43UgJ8D+T5gbi5 rA==
Received: from co1pr02cu002.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-westus2azlp17010003.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.93.10.3]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3uuxuka5f9-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 08 Dec 2023 10:30:21 -0800
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=WWYkwyWz3tocHn0kAiHBtCEUCA3rLuobkwIk/l4m8pS52h4xUQxhk8sSNenaQEEd40YJfibcZwZy/KK64qx3v/vJtbkyk286KiBtJ49E7B08iQFqYsLckJtGwJrDRBr6bgMGV9Qg2+tnybqFZeTZrvqsOi+r7PpCBGurjVlSBdjP0A2mXoD4FwgYEC1emCd90pXs5uUm5tc/jz9gDgGwQoJFfCReMa1YxqstXVPRJppDXtIsRL+4bz9wJEq0NT6x9ncdZmoXjnMZrBYT/O8EYss495hjUtAj8Umo0SFmfH5zMH5BL+1h5WUWG9Cktts359LaZgW5vwOsB2ElCPLeDg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=pguc+5vJKyUKcyMdyv34MiTgtfLRiRhtIeG2M6yPY7E=; b=FsDMNPOHevbd2C4qjSPrvu08OlRPDRnQuy4f02u9YZB5plcJcuX5ci8YGEGwiG2TKjh/UzQUxM99BNAJKvQCLm2+DEwo5isSvBSfgpQnnO/11MkQRp5ml+49OQ8jhHRMUVyswl5GBZhGsDneNxY5FgUa+etHzr+S+pxq6j7F4S/LKdGA+PVIuplpRlx1GJQzWIARcpkr0a9+H5MqyBrFtzfqOzsEc5OZq993H7QvvnLbUzlNuqeXvRAsZAQdz4uAHvKOQ+6EkzS4znFMxUXeuCVr8ihOcsOZwWG5t1/RVYFcMHTtcOJ0JUUsjh6zziQLsQeqj7HfW4zW+lVGxynFRw==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=softfail (sender ip is 66.129.242.14) smtp.rcpttodomain=ietf.org smtp.mailfrom=juniper.net; dmarc=fail (p=reject sp=reject pct=100) action=oreject header.from=juniper.net; dkim=none (message not signed); arc=none (0)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=pguc+5vJKyUKcyMdyv34MiTgtfLRiRhtIeG2M6yPY7E=; b=HtFfV3mn1GOW+wElPSWyoF733oj8snV+yxGz18IngyZchFImJNxjit55EcdkkTDNm6oXyCIQL/9bH0Qp+8qlz3eGmijoLosQPaCK/Tz8rFW5aYG8JvA7G62H8AplEiG2flzt1/tT02L8heJvSoCHhzasaybSqFFxzD8AzcqYGHs=
Received: from BN9PR03CA0757.namprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:408:13a::12) by MW4PR05MB8521.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:303:120::10) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.7068.28; Fri, 8 Dec 2023 18:30:19 +0000
Received: from BN8NAM12FT114.eop-nam12.prod.protection.outlook.com (2603:10b6:408:13a:cafe::7c) by BN9PR03CA0757.outlook.office365.com (2603:10b6:408:13a::12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.7068.28 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 8 Dec 2023 18:30:19 +0000
X-MS-Exchange-Authentication-Results: spf=softfail (sender IP is 66.129.242.14) smtp.mailfrom=juniper.net; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=fail action=oreject header.from=juniper.net;
Received-SPF: SoftFail (protection.outlook.com: domain of transitioning juniper.net discourages use of 66.129.242.14 as permitted sender)
Received: from p-exchfe-eqx-01.jnpr.net (66.129.242.14) by BN8NAM12FT114.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.13.183.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.7091.17 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 8 Dec 2023 18:30:18 +0000
Received: from p-exchbe-eqx-01.jnpr.net (10.104.9.14) by p-exchfe-eqx-01.jnpr.net (10.104.9.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.1118.39; Fri, 8 Dec 2023 12:30:18 -0600
Received: from p-mailhub01.juniper.net (10.104.20.6) by p-exchbe-eqx-01.jnpr.net (10.104.9.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.2.1118.39 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 8 Dec 2023 12:30:18 -0600
Received: from eng-mail03.juniper.net (eng-mail03.juniper.net [10.108.22.11]) by p-mailhub01.juniper.net (8.14.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id 3B8IUH7S014750; Fri, 8 Dec 2023 10:30:17 -0800 (envelope-from lenny@juniper.net)
Received: from eng-mail03.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eng-mail03.juniper.net (8.16.1/8.14.9) with ESMTPS id 3B8ITHi8048592 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 8 Dec 2023 10:29:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lenny@juniper.net)
Received: from localhost (lenny@localhost) by eng-mail03.juniper.net (8.16.1/8.16.1/Submit) with ESMTP id 3B8ITC0R048589; Fri, 8 Dec 2023 10:29:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lenny@juniper.net)
X-Authentication-Warning: eng-mail03.juniper.net: lenny owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2023 10:29:12 -0800
From: Leonard Giuliano <lenny@juniper.net>
To: Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>
CC: James.A.Stevens@collins.com, pim@ietf.org
In-Reply-To: <461326D9-CB2E-4D39-B8AD-D0D91EA44B32@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <596c0c09-a4de-9ed7-9b67-5a6c1ef14fd2@juniper.net>
References: <fc9cefdd-8f36-4276-18b5-a5e52b1264f6@juniper.net> <461326D9-CB2E-4D39-B8AD-D0D91EA44B32@gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
X-EOPAttributedMessage: 0
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: BN8NAM12FT114:EE_|MW4PR05MB8521:EE_
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: e779fdc0-466e-4c9d-2e1e-08dbf81bbb27
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:66.129.242.14; CTRY:US; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:CAL; SFV:NSPM; H:p-exchfe-eqx-01.jnpr.net; PTR:InfoDomainNonexistent; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230031)(4636009)(39860400002)(376002)(396003)(136003)(346002)(230922051799003)(186009)(1800799012)(82310400011)(451199024)(64100799003)(46966006)(36840700001)(40470700004)(31686004)(81166007)(40460700003)(478600001)(82740400003)(356005)(40480700001)(47076005)(36860700001)(26005)(2616005)(4326008)(41300700001)(8676002)(8936002)(2906002)(5660300002)(4744005)(36756003)(70586007)(70206006)(31696002)(54906003)(86362001)(316002)(6916009)(426003)(336012)(36900700001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102;
X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Dec 2023 18:30:18.9363 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e779fdc0-466e-4c9d-2e1e-08dbf81bbb27
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; Ip=[66.129.242.14]; Helo=[p-exchfe-eqx-01.jnpr.net]
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BN8NAM12FT114.eop-nam12.prod.protection.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Anonymous
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MW4PR05MB8521
X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 9JNmpjq61EBUsr2cPt8oMkNwKvFxrSFg
X-Proofpoint-GUID: 9JNmpjq61EBUsr2cPt8oMkNwKvFxrSFg
X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.272,Aquarius:18.0.997,Hydra:6.0.619,FMLib:17.11.176.26 definitions=2023-12-08_13,2023-12-07_01,2023-05-22_02
X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 clxscore=1015 priorityscore=1501 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=470 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2311290000 definitions=main-2312080151
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/pim/BQo0UV_X7nplRXubKDQRAmT4USA>
Subject: Re: [pim] draft-ietf-pim-multicast-lessons-learned-02 & BIDIR-PIM
X-BeenThere: pim@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: Protocol Independent Multicast <pim.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/pim>, <mailto:pim-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/pim/>
List-Post: <mailto:pim@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:pim-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/pim>, <mailto:pim-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2023 18:30:30 -0000


On Thu, 7 Dec 2023, Dino Farinacci wrote:

| I?d argue that what is accomplished by SSM has already been accomplished 
| with CDNs, granted at less scale, but maybe good enough. I?m just 
| concerned downplaying ASM is like throwing away the baby with the bath 
| water.

Well, I wonder if ASM is less like a baby and maybe more like a 
middle-aged freeloader, who eats all your food, drinks all your beer, 
frightens the children and makes it difficult to meet new friends, but we 
keep around bc we had some great times in high school together ;)