Re: [quicwg/base-drafts] Idle timeout indicates you will timeout (#3099)

[Jana Iyengar <[e-mail]>]

janaiyengar commented on this pull request.

A few comments. I think it would help readability immensely if you could articulate a new timeout period, Idle Timeout (ITO) explicitly.

Also, can you change the title of the PR? It's not particularly clarifying.

> @@ -2344,28 +2344,30 @@ source address.
 
 ## Idle Timeout {#idle-timeout}
 
-If the idle timeout is enabled, a connection is silently closed and the state is
-discarded when it remains idle for longer than both the advertised
-idle timeout (see {{transport-parameter-definitions}}) and three times the
+If the idle timeout is enabled by either peer, a connection is silently closed
+and the state is discarded when it remains idle for longer than the

```suggestion
and its state is discarded when it remains idle for longer than the
```

> -containing frames other than ACK or PADDING (an ack-eliciting packet; see
-{{QUIC-RECOVERY}}), but only if no other ack-eliciting packets have been sent
-since last receiving a packet.  Restarting when sending packets ensures that
-connections do not prematurely time out when initiating new activity.
-
-The value for an idle timeout can be asymmetric.  The value advertised by an
-endpoint is only used to determine whether the connection is live at that
-endpoint.  An endpoint that sends packets near the end of the idle timeout
-period of a peer risks having those packets discarded if its peer enters the
-draining state before the packets arrive.  If a peer could timeout within a
-Probe Timeout (PTO; see Section 6.3 of {{QUIC-RECOVERY}}), it is advisable to
-test for liveness before sending any data that cannot be retried safely.  Note
-that it is likely that only applications or application protocols will
-know what information can be retried.
+Each endpoint advertises a different max_idle_timeout, but the effective value
+is determined by taking the minimum of the two advertised values. By announcing

```suggestion
at an endpoint is computed as the minimum of the two advertised values. By announcing
```

> -{{QUIC-RECOVERY}}), but only if no other ack-eliciting packets have been sent
-since last receiving a packet.  Restarting when sending packets ensures that
-connections do not prematurely time out when initiating new activity.
-
-The value for an idle timeout can be asymmetric.  The value advertised by an
-endpoint is only used to determine whether the connection is live at that
-endpoint.  An endpoint that sends packets near the end of the idle timeout
-period of a peer risks having those packets discarded if its peer enters the
-draining state before the packets arrive.  If a peer could timeout within a
-Probe Timeout (PTO; see Section 6.3 of {{QUIC-RECOVERY}}), it is advisable to
-test for liveness before sending any data that cannot be retried safely.  Note
-that it is likely that only applications or application protocols will
-know what information can be retried.
+Each endpoint advertises a different max_idle_timeout, but the effective value
+is determined by taking the minimum of the two advertised values. By announcing
+a max_idle_timeout, endpoints commit to initiating an immediate close

```suggestion
a max_idle_timeout, an endpoint commits to initiating an immediate close
```

> -processed successfully.  The timer is also restarted when sending a packet
-containing frames other than ACK or PADDING (an ack-eliciting packet; see
-{{QUIC-RECOVERY}}), but only if no other ack-eliciting packets have been sent
-since last receiving a packet.  Restarting when sending packets ensures that
-connections do not prematurely time out when initiating new activity.
-
-The value for an idle timeout can be asymmetric.  The value advertised by an
-endpoint is only used to determine whether the connection is live at that
-endpoint.  An endpoint that sends packets near the end of the idle timeout
-period of a peer risks having those packets discarded if its peer enters the
-draining state before the packets arrive.  If a peer could timeout within a
-Probe Timeout (PTO; see Section 6.3 of {{QUIC-RECOVERY}}), it is advisable to
-test for liveness before sending any data that cannot be retried safely.  Note
-that it is likely that only applications or application protocols will
-know what information can be retried.
+Each endpoint advertises a different max_idle_timeout, but the effective value

```suggestion
Each endpoint advertises a max_idle_timeout, but the effective value
```

> -since last receiving a packet.  Restarting when sending packets ensures that
-connections do not prematurely time out when initiating new activity.
-
-The value for an idle timeout can be asymmetric.  The value advertised by an
-endpoint is only used to determine whether the connection is live at that
-endpoint.  An endpoint that sends packets near the end of the idle timeout
-period of a peer risks having those packets discarded if its peer enters the
-draining state before the packets arrive.  If a peer could timeout within a
-Probe Timeout (PTO; see Section 6.3 of {{QUIC-RECOVERY}}), it is advisable to
-test for liveness before sending any data that cannot be retried safely.  Note
-that it is likely that only applications or application protocols will
-know what information can be retried.
+Each endpoint advertises a different max_idle_timeout, but the effective value
+is determined by taking the minimum of the two advertised values. By announcing
+a max_idle_timeout, endpoints commit to initiating an immediate close
+({{immediate-close}}) if it abandons a connection prior to the effective value.

```suggestion
({{immediate-close}}) if it abandons the connection prior to the effective value.
```

> -since last receiving a packet.  Restarting when sending packets ensures that
-connections do not prematurely time out when initiating new activity.
-
-The value for an idle timeout can be asymmetric.  The value advertised by an
-endpoint is only used to determine whether the connection is live at that
-endpoint.  An endpoint that sends packets near the end of the idle timeout
-period of a peer risks having those packets discarded if its peer enters the
-draining state before the packets arrive.  If a peer could timeout within a
-Probe Timeout (PTO; see Section 6.3 of {{QUIC-RECOVERY}}), it is advisable to
-test for liveness before sending any data that cannot be retried safely.  Note
-that it is likely that only applications or application protocols will
-know what information can be retried.
+Each endpoint advertises a different max_idle_timeout, but the effective value
+is determined by taking the minimum of the two advertised values. By announcing
+a max_idle_timeout, endpoints commit to initiating an immediate close
+({{immediate-close}}) if it abandons a connection prior to the effective value.

I don't understand this sentence... what does it mean for an endpoint to initiate an immediate close if it abandons the connection prior to the min? I thought that the endpoint was to initiate an immediate close _at_ the min. Why are we talking about abandoning?

> -
-The value for an idle timeout can be asymmetric.  The value advertised by an
-endpoint is only used to determine whether the connection is live at that
-endpoint.  An endpoint that sends packets near the end of the idle timeout
-period of a peer risks having those packets discarded if its peer enters the
-draining state before the packets arrive.  If a peer could timeout within a
-Probe Timeout (PTO; see Section 6.3 of {{QUIC-RECOVERY}}), it is advisable to
-test for liveness before sending any data that cannot be retried safely.  Note
-that it is likely that only applications or application protocols will
-know what information can be retried.
+Each endpoint advertises a different max_idle_timeout, but the effective value
+is determined by taking the minimum of the two advertised values. By announcing
+a max_idle_timeout, endpoints commit to initiating an immediate close
+({{immediate-close}}) if it abandons a connection prior to the effective value.
+
+An endpoint restarts any timer it maintains when a packet from its peer is

Do you mean an idle timeout timer? I would say that explicitly. Maybe even give it a name - ITO? 


> -period of a peer risks having those packets discarded if its peer enters the
-draining state before the packets arrive.  If a peer could timeout within a
-Probe Timeout (PTO; see Section 6.3 of {{QUIC-RECOVERY}}), it is advisable to
-test for liveness before sending any data that cannot be retried safely.  Note
-that it is likely that only applications or application protocols will
-know what information can be retried.
+Each endpoint advertises a different max_idle_timeout, but the effective value
+is determined by taking the minimum of the two advertised values. By announcing
+a max_idle_timeout, endpoints commit to initiating an immediate close
+({{immediate-close}}) if it abandons a connection prior to the effective value.
+
+An endpoint restarts any timer it maintains when a packet from its peer is
+received and processed successfully.  The timer is also restarted when sending
+a packet containing frames other than ACK or PADDING (an ack-eliciting packet;
+see {{QUIC-RECOVERY}}), but only if no other ack-eliciting packets have been
+sent since last receiving a packet.  Restarting when sending packets ensures

Can you write some rationale for these restarting rules?

> -know what information can be retried.
+Each endpoint advertises a different max_idle_timeout, but the effective value
+is determined by taking the minimum of the two advertised values. By announcing
+a max_idle_timeout, endpoints commit to initiating an immediate close
+({{immediate-close}}) if it abandons a connection prior to the effective value.
+
+An endpoint restarts any timer it maintains when a packet from its peer is
+received and processed successfully.  The timer is also restarted when sending
+a packet containing frames other than ACK or PADDING (an ack-eliciting packet;
+see {{QUIC-RECOVERY}}), but only if no other ack-eliciting packets have been
+sent since last receiving a packet.  Restarting when sending packets ensures
+that connections do not prematurely time out when initiating new activity.
+
+An endpoint that sends packets near the end of the idle timeout period
+risks having those packets discarded if its peer enters the draining state
+before the packets arrive.  If a peer could time out within an Probe Timeout

This is not a great construction: "If a peer could time out within a Probe Timeout".  It's also confusing ... maybe change this to "When an endpoint is about to send data that cannot be retried safely, it is possible that the peer may have reached the end of its idle timeout period before this data arrives at the peer. To avoid such situations, it is recommended that an endpoint test for liveness when it expects that the peer might be close, within a Probe Timeout (PTO; see Section ...) period for instance, to the end of its idle timeout period."

>  
-: The idle timeout is a value in milliseconds that is encoded as an integer; see
-  ({{idle-timeout}}).  If this parameter is absent or zero then the idle
-  timeout is disabled.
+: The max idle timeout is a value in milliseconds that is encoded as an integer;
+  see ({{idle-timeout}}).  Idle timeout is disabled when this parameter is
+  absent or zero on both sides.

Rephrase -- not both sides, but when the parameter is advertized as zero by both endpoints.

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