Re: [regext] [Ext] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-regext-data-escrow-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

"Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com> Thu, 07 May 2020 16:02 UTC

Return-Path: <rwilton@cisco.com>
X-Original-To: regext@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: regext@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE24C3A0A27; Thu, 7 May 2020 09:02:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -9.598
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=lpbXgOsx; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=dm8bGayz
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UtJjdcuXBJ-5; Thu, 7 May 2020 09:02:29 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 820E63A09FB; Thu, 7 May 2020 09:02:29 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5732; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1588867349; x=1590076949; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=2tRtZOBoG8MQCVDId2fpmCrkQf4jAuEevvVhlLYwBi4=; b=lpbXgOsxu+IRF+rPb5JkhmGdzHOqy+Cc+ZnElpj34thMVcfCdNUr4dqH U5mGzb4KblZSVBWA4HeQPe4AOU0SspTsvqZ1gHddBkRdrlZXJ9O2lW9Hl UkxcQEwKzf5J3SJK5dA/WRUTFT17NXgXSoe4nXUW57W0eanLo2DVYx8EK M=;
IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?9a23=3A2vUIeR946vDNhf9uRHGN82YQeigqvan1NQcJ65?= =?us-ascii?q?0hzqhDabmn44+7ZRCN5P5kilmPWp/UuLpIiOvT5qbnX2FIoZOMq2sLf5EEUR?= =?us-ascii?q?gZwd4XkAotDI/gawX7IffmYjZ8EJFEU1lorHCwOE5TXsHkaA6arni79zVHHB?= =?us-ascii?q?L5OEJ8Lfj0HYiHicOx2qiy9pTfbh8OiiC6ZOZ5LQ69qkPascxFjA=3D=3D?=
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true
X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C0AADaL7Re/4QNJK1mGgEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEDAQEBARIBAQEBAgIBAQEBQIFHgVRRBW5YLyoKhBmDRgONQZg1gUKBEAN?= =?us-ascii?q?UCwEBAQwBASMKAgQBAYREAheBcCQ4EwIDAQELAQEFAQEBAgEFBG2FVgyFcQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEDEhERDAEBNwELBAIBCBEEAQEBAgImAgICMBUICAIEAQ0FCBMHgwWCSwM?= =?us-ascii?q?uAQMLpWYCgTmIYXaBMoMAAQEFhS4Ygg4DBoEOKoJjhjyDJRqBQT+BEUOCTT6?= =?us-ascii?q?CZwICARmBAxEBEgEjgxAzgi2OQgaDAaEMCoJIiBiLOIRjgluIYZFkHY96iVS?= =?us-ascii?q?TSAIEAgQFAg4BAQWBaSJmcHAVgyRQGA2QQjiDOoUUhUJ0NwIGAQcBAQMJfJA?= =?us-ascii?q?6AYEPAQE?=
X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.73,364,1583193600"; d="scan'208";a="763130276"
Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 07 May 2020 16:02:28 +0000
Received: from XCH-RCD-002.cisco.com (xch-rcd-002.cisco.com [173.37.102.12]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 047G2SpL012386 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 7 May 2020 16:02:28 GMT
Received: from xhs-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.227.246) by XCH-RCD-002.cisco.com (173.37.102.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Thu, 7 May 2020 11:02:27 -0500
Received: from xhs-aln-001.cisco.com (173.37.135.118) by xhs-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.227.246) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Thu, 7 May 2020 11:02:27 -0500
Received: from NAM12-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (173.37.151.57) by xhs-aln-001.cisco.com (173.37.135.118) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 7 May 2020 11:02:27 -0500
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=cuwYsqZvAFIDyyPUFvzyg8If9eqOO3jXeTstBsUi6MY7R2P4rsa8AnQdGCiIivtdVQ5ayRyJaPC+t0Emu4TPPHckjbYBeDCHLKf9BPkoEjsEcejBfX4b+wTv0kEAzxMk+pQqi9P+uqQ6twfGZhaw6gC8Rz5GnplxHS6Z8NjuXyW2mw0aquVXhPTq6TjrHSzKXInlVYkljKmDyXTwJwJl9URAc8nf/d0rgpGdc1Rlylii/DQo53sI3TrCOSJvNVd8UBarti8Xk85QqnVzoFwe2tNtuyim0DJhY3mKWhjIMIivnWtZfU0HWkgA05ALZdE8fWUWVt6rxLVtIz73l0vrIg==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=2tRtZOBoG8MQCVDId2fpmCrkQf4jAuEevvVhlLYwBi4=; b=VzyqegOaq9DTW0B0vOEPZFnaLXQpq7OlUWMo+veXqKX0ppoDHVGK11Ip3v36R98PRGBdYXezI1Hb3w2QNAqly0jZv6p7wnUbnE4eIHE/xjBzVAhMpbN1LBn7/vtQwckAzLJYcBfT1cJ3E5i9oDyNmhGEoKy4bvo5dLuWrV/2qZGTsFugZaEkZxVTnGjysQVHH0xfWBLgdXXJIstz5z5mueEJKl3GYHWJgG8nex331pOe1IHlS9vWZgIR+oeuXYciWIkGbCeewMt7MkrnNW0hDlD8JAmt8zXyoRf/7ATHSmcWa8s0QNpwyQFS8doXw9Cza0dna0YaWuX96Z2yKeEuvg==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cisco.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=cisco.com; dkim=pass header.d=cisco.com; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-cisco-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=2tRtZOBoG8MQCVDId2fpmCrkQf4jAuEevvVhlLYwBi4=; b=dm8bGayzAGOM7cynIhyKlHQTanK7B7WVVrP24ob1Ql1RtHEtPzxWZMryqlg1UhCHD3AyTdiSdC7POAHL3cPKOd+FxalLw4sZfU+enjyCNX7F82rddnsncwitTu3ZgfbnpHOR/deNwtb527WEKhzHr4AVvbd7SN3Nrn+3EACtjdU=
Received: from MN2PR11MB4366.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:190::17) by MN2PR11MB3917.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:135::13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2958.29; Thu, 7 May 2020 16:02:26 +0000
Received: from MN2PR11MB4366.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3:2164:a8e2:33b3]) by MN2PR11MB4366.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::3:2164:a8e2:33b3%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2979.028; Thu, 7 May 2020 16:02:26 +0000
From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com>
To: Gustavo Lozano <gustavo.lozano@icann.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-regext-data-escrow@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-regext-data-escrow@ietf.org>, "regext-chairs@ietf.org" <regext-chairs@ietf.org>, "regext@ietf.org" <regext@ietf.org>, James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
Thread-Topic: [Ext] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-regext-data-escrow-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
Thread-Index: AQHWDcfX1wAUIMeCMUSXRlkXTeHmgKh8elcAgCB2XtA=
Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 16:02:25 +0000
Message-ID: <MN2PR11MB4366A23710BFC6F4BB7F0CFFB5A50@MN2PR11MB4366.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <158636547907.1936.4743911700628916243@ietfa.amsl.com> <4156BA6C-0BE7-46DB-97AF-E5C1CF3E7BBE@icann.org>
In-Reply-To: <4156BA6C-0BE7-46DB-97AF-E5C1CF3E7BBE@icann.org>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: icann.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;icann.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=cisco.com;
x-originating-ip: [82.15.79.32]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 98b291d4-82bc-4825-15b4-08d7f2a00943
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB3917:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <MN2PR11MB39176FBFF6B620EFD31B921CB5A50@MN2PR11MB3917.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:6430;
x-forefront-prvs: 03965EFC76
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: jNkjzqsGxoc0VzofpIa5wB8Pvk1xxw6/V+66uE0yGm2FEsnhqaPKF7OpZwubEBktaKb6QOK6GQz91h/GsijPHOi1/qTNC8j7hKoexIsJPTDRe5M2ZrL0b+dIP1gNDtY/4tgDvX/JEf62etdpwuGC8V3P104D2DcMFtlH6BlNOn+z0tLdgEkHwozng4Aykd5aqplAdPJMsOtfljriu8DaXOuHGc1SMUTQ/FsqQ0AWthHEuu5L8oze5+iqWpzf3URiRHdzWVfO7FGdt4/tuF3jMWyQ3IEBxbHgtxZkBYWsxHOhTD5DLD12uwPt2Gi5IIFFqsUJmglm6Nn3jY5P/xKuAi+Wyl2UHFT78GuFvhgkpSj4dfVK/fyxFp3ITwadwNbHaY27yk5L3R8VwynBovUGJa9YmK9Qe9s411ZeI3G6x8vTDERMzO6WQ82I+WCepavHotKJ+FSdRPMaeV4KfAyE/JNHeUptF/It881wtkrZ+N9YcVkeithdKxJQvFd0Hm40OBmEALFB5JeCKg40WLtoMxyaZG6vQQjQvFw/MmLRknwHs9Nyt+xPzpgGyUtL2TYto8XJtf2NMiP95/FLoD9oEgdGf4brp6GrfDnzWancWiQ=
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:MN2PR11MB4366.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFTY:; SFS:(4636009)(39860400002)(376002)(346002)(136003)(396003)(366004)(33430700001)(86362001)(966005)(33656002)(66556008)(83320400001)(33440700001)(5660300002)(64756008)(71200400001)(83300400001)(83290400001)(83310400001)(66446008)(66946007)(83280400001)(110136005)(186003)(26005)(7696005)(478600001)(76116006)(66476007)(54906003)(8936002)(4326008)(316002)(8676002)(9686003)(2906002)(6506007)(52536014)(55016002)(53546011); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 98b291d4-82bc-4825-15b4-08d7f2a00943
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 May 2020 16:02:25.6207 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 81vbnj75Y2TzE1W8QjebEg0QRCpzXIxcNB0nRfsb2ztFpUxL8VZW4qHWzz4s28cmUXb3CchqUxBgSCzlYhAY3Q==
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB3917
X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com
X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.12, xch-rcd-002.cisco.com
X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-10.cisco.com
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/regext/9lS_wUqf9B2T-YVRgNra2eqPRgs>
Subject: Re: [regext] [Ext] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-regext-data-escrow-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
X-BeenThere: regext@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Registration Protocols Extensions <regext.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/regext>, <mailto:regext-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/regext/>
List-Post: <mailto:regext@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:regext-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/regext>, <mailto:regext-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 16:02:32 -0000

Hi Gustavo,


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gustavo Lozano <gustavo.lozano@icann.org>
> Sent: 17 April 2020 00:59
> To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>om>; The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> Cc: draft-ietf-regext-data-escrow@ietf.org; regext-chairs@ietf.org;
> regext@ietf.org; James Gould <jgould@verisign.com>
> Subject: Re: [Ext] Robert Wilton's Discuss on draft-ietf-regext-data-
> escrow-07: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> 
> Thank you Robert,
> 
> Comments inline, prefixed with GL -
> 
> Regards,
> Gustavo
> 
> On 4/8/20, 10:04, "Robert Wilton via Datatracker" <noreply@ietf.org>
> wrote:
> 
>     Robert Wilton has entered the following ballot position for
>     draft-ietf-regext-data-escrow-07: Discuss
> 
>     When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>     email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut
> this
>     introductory paragraph, however.)
> 
> 
>     Please refer to https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
> 3A__www.ietf.org_iesg_statement_discuss-
> 2Dcriteria.html&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=V
> bweciUcwYQpIOZDSxl0ezGd1hGDtd-0BvgAgfmwfE0&m=gZgTftWuC9SsZdq_QWTwb-
> T4RjxNiDq9i2krpdXgHfM&s=QHMiOWDTGvuiZh0DtVdWwx_J4DxECAFWGpr-Srux4pQ&e=
>     for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> 
> 
>     The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
> 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dregext-2Ddata-
> 2Descrow_&d=DwICaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=VbweciU
> cwYQpIOZDSxl0ezGd1hGDtd-0BvgAgfmwfE0&m=gZgTftWuC9SsZdq_QWTwb-
> T4RjxNiDq9i2krpdXgHfM&s=YhAtC7C7hDwiSnfUvetOd_lI7t6Q5KkhtITQ9Vv9OXE&e=
> 
> 
> 
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     DISCUSS:
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>     Hi,
> 
>     I spotted some issues with the terminology and the description of the
> algorithm
>     that I would like you to please address.
> 
>     Section 2: Terminology
> 
>     The definitions provided for "Differential" vs "Incremental" are the
> opposite
>     to their standard meaning in backups.  The term definitions should be
> reversed
>     to align with the common vernacular.  I.e. differential is the diff
> against the
>     last full backup, incremental is the backup since the backup (of any
> type) was
>     performed.
> 
> GL - The definition of differential in the draft complies with the legal
> use in the gTLD space. The amount of work required to make this change,
> make it unrealistic. It's worth mentioning that data escrow is not the
> same as a backup.
> 

I don't see a huge difference between a remote backup vs data escrow.  E.g., if I use an online backup service then it seems that they are storing data securely on my behalf that I can subsequently recover if required.  It feels like the concepts are so very similar that using the same set of terms with different meanings could easily cause confusion.

The choice here is between having 
(i) a protocol that matches legal data escrow definitions but could easily be confused by people who see this as a type of remote backup
(ii) a protocol specification that matches the widely used common definitions for these terms (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incremental_backup, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_backup), but that is opposite to the legal definitions.

It seems to me that the legal definitions are really self-contained within their documents, and potentially could be updated over time.  However, I see no way that we can convince the world in general to reverse their understanding/usage of these terms, and hence if you are to use these terms, I still believe that they should align to their common usage rather than the legal definitions.

Of course, an alternative solution would be to define and use completely different terms for the incremental and differential deposits, e.g. full deposit, full-delta deposit, minimal-delta deposit.

Thanks,
Rob