Re: [rtcweb] Video codec selection - way forward

Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Thu, 21 November 2013 20:02 UTC

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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 12:01:53 -0800
Message-ID: <CABcZeBNcoRWNsaTsjOEF03jNwAunGNOtozv0E4p5utVjVjLWUQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codec selection - way forward
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I would like to propose some additional alternatives.

SHOULD: Theora
MUST: Theora
SHOULD: H.261
SHOULD: H.261 Theora
MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.261
MUST: H.261
MUST: H.261; SHOULD: Theora
MUST: H.261 Theora
SHOULD: H.263
SHOULD: H.263 Theora
MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.263
SHOULD: H.263 H.261
SHOULD: H.263 H.261 Theora
MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.263 H.261
MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.263
MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.263 Theora
MUST: H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.263
MUST: H.263
MUST: H.263; SHOULD: Theora
MUST: H.263 Theora
MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.261
MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.261 Theora
MUST: H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.261
MUST: H.263 H.261
MUST: H.263 H.261; SHOULD: Theora
MUST: H.263 H.261 Theora
SHOULD: VP8
SHOULD: VP8 Theora
MUST: Theora; SHOULD: VP8
SHOULD: VP8 H.261
SHOULD: VP8 H.261 Theora
MUST: Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.261
MUST: H.261; SHOULD: VP8
MUST: H.261; SHOULD: VP8 Theora
MUST: H.261 Theora; SHOULD: VP8
SHOULD: VP8 H.263
SHOULD: VP8 H.263 Theora
MUST: Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.263
SHOULD: VP8 H.263 H.261
SHOULD: VP8 H.263 H.261 Theora
MUST: Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.263 H.261
MUST: H.261; SHOULD: VP8 H.263
MUST: H.261; SHOULD: VP8 H.263 Theora
MUST: H.261 Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.263
MUST: H.263; SHOULD: VP8
MUST: H.263; SHOULD: VP8 Theora
MUST: H.263 Theora; SHOULD: VP8
MUST: H.263; SHOULD: VP8 H.261
MUST: H.263; SHOULD: VP8 H.261 Theora
MUST: H.263 Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.261
MUST: H.263 H.261; SHOULD: VP8
MUST: H.263 H.261; SHOULD: VP8 Theora
MUST: H.263 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: VP8
MUST: VP8
MUST: VP8; SHOULD: Theora
MUST: VP8 Theora
 MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.261
MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.261 Theora
MUST: VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.261
MUST: VP8 H.261
MUST: VP8 H.261; SHOULD: Theora
MUST: VP8 H.261 Theora
MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.263
MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.263 Theora
MUST: VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.263
MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.263 H.261
MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.263 H.261 Theora
MUST: VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.263 H.261
MUST: VP8 H.261; SHOULD: H.263
MUST: VP8 H.261; SHOULD: H.263 Theora
MUST: VP8 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.263
MUST: VP8 H.263
MUST: VP8 H.263; SHOULD: Theora
MUST: VP8 H.263 Theora
MUST: VP8 H.263; SHOULD: H.261
MUST: VP8 H.263; SHOULD: H.261 Theora
MUST: VP8 H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.261
MUST: VP8 H.263 H.261
MUST: VP8 H.263 H.261; SHOULD: Theora
MUST: VP8 H.263 H.261 Theora
SHOULD: H.264
SHOULD: H.264 Theora
MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.264
SHOULD: H.264 H.261
SHOULD: H.264 H.261 Theora
MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.261
MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.264
MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.264 Theora
MUST: H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264
SHOULD: H.264 H.263
SHOULD: H.264 H.263 Theora
MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.263
SHOULD: H.264 H.263 H.261
SHOULD: H.264 H.263 H.261 Theora
MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.263 H.261
MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.264 H.263
MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.264 H.263 Theora
MUST: H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.263
MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.264
MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.264 Theora
MUST: H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.264
MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.264 H.261
MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.264 H.261 Theora
MUST: H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.261
MUST: H.263 H.261; SHOULD: H.264
MUST: H.263 H.261; SHOULD: H.264 Theora
MUST: H.263 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264
SHOULD: H.264 VP8
SHOULD: H.264 VP8 Theora
MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8
SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.261
SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.261 Theora
MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.261
MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.264 VP8
MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 Theora
MUST: H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8
SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263
SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263 Theora
MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263
SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263 H.261
SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263 H.261 Theora
MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263 H.261
MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263
MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263 Theora
MUST: H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263
MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.264 VP8
MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 Theora
MUST: H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8
MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.261
MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.261 Theora
MUST: H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.261
MUST: H.263 H.261; SHOULD: H.264 VP8
MUST: H.263 H.261; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 Theora
MUST: H.263 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8
MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.264
MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.264 Theora
MUST: VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.264
MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.264 H.261
MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.264 H.261 Theora
MUST: VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.261
MUST: VP8 H.261; SHOULD: H.264
MUST: VP8 H.261; SHOULD: H.264 Theora
MUST: VP8 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264
MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.264 H.263
MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.264 H.263 Theora
MUST: VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.263
MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.264 H.263 H.261
MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.264 H.263 H.261 Theora
MUST: VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.263 H.261
MUST: VP8 H.261; SHOULD: H.264 H.263
MUST: VP8 H.261; SHOULD: H.264 H.263 Theora
MUST: VP8 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.263
MUST: VP8 H.263; SHOULD: H.264
MUST: VP8 H.263; SHOULD: H.264 Theora
MUST: VP8 H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.264
MUST: VP8 H.263; SHOULD: H.264 H.261
MUST: VP8 H.263; SHOULD: H.264 H.261 Theora
MUST: VP8 H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.261
MUST: VP8 H.263 H.261; SHOULD: H.264
MUST: VP8 H.263 H.261; SHOULD: H.264 Theora
MUST: VP8 H.263 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264
MUST: H.264
MUST: H.264; SHOULD: Theora
MUST: H.264 Theora
MUST: H.264; SHOULD: H.261
MUST: H.264; SHOULD: H.261 Theora
MUST: H.264 Theora; SHOULD: H.261
MUST: H.264 H.261
MUST: H.264 H.261; SHOULD: Theora
MUST: H.264 H.261 Theora
MUST: H.264; SHOULD: H.263
MUST: H.264; SHOULD: H.263 Theora
MUST: H.264 Theora; SHOULD: H.263
MUST: H.264; SHOULD: H.263 H.261
MUST: H.264; SHOULD: H.263 H.261 Theora
MUST: H.264 Theora; SHOULD: H.263 H.261
MUST: H.264 H.261; SHOULD: H.263
MUST: H.264 H.261; SHOULD: H.263 Theora
MUST: H.264 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.263
MUST: H.264 H.263
MUST: H.264 H.263; SHOULD: Theora
MUST: H.264 H.263 Theora
MUST: H.264 H.263; SHOULD: H.261
MUST: H.264 H.263; SHOULD: H.261 Theora
MUST: H.264 H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.261
MUST: H.264 H.263 H.261
MUST: H.264 H.263 H.261; SHOULD: Theora
MUST: H.264 H.263 H.261 Theora
MUST: H.264; SHOULD: VP8
MUST: H.264; SHOULD: VP8 Theora
MUST: H.264 Theora; SHOULD: VP8
MUST: H.264; SHOULD: VP8 H.261
MUST: H.264; SHOULD: VP8 H.261 Theora
MUST: H.264 Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.261
MUST: H.264 H.261; SHOULD: VP8
MUST: H.264 H.261; SHOULD: VP8 Theora
MUST: H.264 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: VP8
MUST: H.264; SHOULD: VP8 H.263
MUST: H.264; SHOULD: VP8 H.263 Theora
MUST: H.264 Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.263
MUST: H.264; SHOULD: VP8 H.263 H.261
MUST: H.264; SHOULD: VP8 H.263 H.261 Theora
MUST: H.264 Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.263 H.261
MUST: H.264 H.261; SHOULD: VP8 H.263
MUST: H.264 H.261; SHOULD: VP8 H.263 Theora
MUST: H.264 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.263
MUST: H.264 H.263; SHOULD: VP8
MUST: H.264 H.263; SHOULD: VP8 Theora
MUST: H.264 H.263 Theora; SHOULD: VP8
MUST: H.264 H.263; SHOULD: VP8 H.261
MUST: H.264 H.263; SHOULD: VP8 H.261 Theora
MUST: H.264 H.263 Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.261
MUST: H.264 H.263 H.261; SHOULD: VP8
MUST: H.264 H.263 H.261; SHOULD: VP8 Theora
MUST: H.264 H.263 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: VP8
MUST: H.264 VP8
MUST: H.264 VP8; SHOULD: Theora
MUST: H.264 VP8 Theora
MUST: H.264 VP8; SHOULD: H.261
MUST: H.264 VP8; SHOULD: H.261 Theora
MUST: H.264 VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.261
MUST: H.264 VP8 H.261
MUST: H.264 VP8 H.261; SHOULD: Theora
MUST: H.264 VP8 H.261 Theora
MUST: H.264 VP8; SHOULD: H.263
MUST: H.264 VP8; SHOULD: H.263 Theora
MUST: H.264 VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.263
MUST: H.264 VP8; SHOULD: H.263 H.261
MUST: H.264 VP8; SHOULD: H.263 H.261 Theora
MUST: H.264 VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.263 H.261
MUST: H.264 VP8 H.261; SHOULD: H.263
MUST: H.264 VP8 H.261; SHOULD: H.263 Theora
MUST: H.264 VP8 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.263
MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263
MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263; SHOULD: Theora
MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263 Theora
MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263; SHOULD: H.261
MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263; SHOULD: H.261 Theora
MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.261
MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263 H.261
MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263 H.261; SHOULD: Theora
MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263 H.261 Theora
SHOULD do 1 of {H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.263, Theora}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.263, H.261}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.263, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 2 of {H.263, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 1 of {VP8, Theora}
SHOULD do 1 of {VP8, H.261}
SHOULD do 1 of {VP8, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 2 of {VP8, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 1 of {VP8, H.263}
SHOULD do 1 of {VP8, H.263, Theora}
SHOULD do 2 of {VP8, H.263, Theora}
SHOULD do 1 of {VP8, H.263, H.261}
SHOULD do 2 of {VP8, H.263, H.261}
SHOULD do 1 of {VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 2 of {VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 3 of {VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, Theora}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, H.261}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, H.263}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, H.263, Theora}
SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, H.263, Theora}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, H.263, H.261}
SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, H.263, H.261}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, H.263, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, H.263, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 3 of {H.264, H.263, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, VP8}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, VP8, Theora}
SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, VP8, Theora}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.261}
SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.261}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 3 of {H.264, VP8, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.263}
SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.263}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, Theora}
SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, Theora}
SHOULD do 3 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, Theora}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261}
SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261}
SHOULD do 3 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261}
SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 3 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
SHOULD do 4 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 1 of {H.261, Theora}
MUST do 1 of {H.263, Theora}
MUST do 1 of {H.263, H.261}
MUST do 1 of {H.263, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 2 of {H.263, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 1 of {VP8, Theora}
MUST do 1 of {VP8, H.261}
MUST do 1 of {VP8, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 2 of {VP8, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 1 of {VP8, H.263}
MUST do 1 of {VP8, H.263, Theora}
MUST do 2 of {VP8, H.263, Theora}
MUST do 1 of {VP8, H.263, H.261}
MUST do 2 of {VP8, H.263, H.261}
MUST do 1 of {VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 2 of {VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 3 of {VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 1 of {H.264, Theora}
MUST do 1 of {H.264, H.261}
MUST do 1 of {H.264, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 2 of {H.264, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 1 of {H.264, H.263}
MUST do 1 of {H.264, H.263, Theora}
MUST do 2 of {H.264, H.263, Theora}
MUST do 1 of {H.264, H.263, H.261}
MUST do 2 of {H.264, H.263, H.261}
MUST do 1 of {H.264, H.263, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 2 of {H.264, H.263, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 3 of {H.264, H.263, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 1 of {H.264, VP8}
MUST do 1 of {H.264, VP8, Theora}
MUST do 2 of {H.264, VP8, Theora}
MUST do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.261}
MUST do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.261}
MUST do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 3 of {H.264, VP8, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.263}
MUST do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.263}
MUST do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, Theora}
MUST do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, Theora}
MUST do 3 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, Theora}
MUST do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261}
MUST do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261}
MUST do 3 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261}
MUST do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 3 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
MUST do 4 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}







On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>; wrote:

>
> Added a
>
> #11     • MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264 CBP, H.263}
>
>
> On Nov 21, 2013, at 11:20 AM, David Singer <singer@apple.com>; wrote:
>
> > Chairs
> >
> > can we add this as an option to the formal list, so we get formal
> feedback on its acceptability, please?
> >
> > “Like option ??, pick at least two of {VP8, H.264 CBP, H.263}”
> >
> >
> > I think this may be the best (maybe only) way to tease out how much risk
> people perceive.
> >
> > Many thanks
> >
> > On Nov 21, 2013, at 9:22 , Maik Merten <maikmerten@googlemail.com>;
> wrote:
> >
> >> Cleary H.263 is preferable from an engineering standpoint (as is, e.g.,
> MPEG-1 Part 2): better performance, more deployments. The central question
> is, however, if those can actually be implemented without some sort of
> licensing.
> >>
> >> If they can: Aweseome! However, this may not be determinable without a
> review by people who are knowledgeable in the field of IPR, i.e., "actual
> lawyers". I understand that H.263 is not yet old enough to automatically be
> considered "safe" (and neither is MPEG-1 Part 2, although it is closer).
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Maik
> >>
> >> Am 20.11.2013 20:42, schrieb David Singer:
> >>> I think we should think hard about H.263 instead of H.261 as the third
> fallback.  Why?
> >>>
> >>> http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> H.263 was first published in March 1996, so it's 17 years old.  The
> restrictions (e.g. on picture size) are no WORSE than H.261.  Yes, more
> recent amendments deal with this (and a plethora of other issues), so we’d
> need to settle on which of those are mandatory (the usual profiling
> discussion).
> >>>
> >>> There are 34 records in the patent database against H.261, mostly from
> 1989 but one as recent as 2005 (though that is a re-file).  That's 2.2
> (reciprocity), as was one other I checked.
> >>>
> >>> Rather surprisingly, there are only 31 against H.263!  The most recent
> is 2011, and is also option 2.  Most are 1997-2001.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On this quick glance, H.263 appears no worse than H.261. IANAL (as I
> am sure you have all noticed).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> H.263 is much more widely supported and mandated.  It has been
> mandated in the 3GPP specs for years (for lots of services, including
> videoconf), and is effectively the fallback codec today in the industry, as
> I understand.  It was ubiquitous in video telephony for years, and I
> suspect many of those systems still ship it.
> >>>
> >>> So, would “MUST implement at least two of (H.264, VP8, H.263)” work?
> >>>
> >>> (I am asking the question, not even answering on behalf of my company,
> yet.  Let’s get the issues on the table.)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> David Singer
> >>> Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc.
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>> rtcweb@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> rtcweb mailing list
> >> rtcweb@ietf.org
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> >
> > David Singer
> > Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > rtcweb@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>
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