Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate
Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org> Wed, 07 September 2011 21:58 UTC
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Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2011 17:57:25 -0400
From: Randell Jesup <randell-ietf@jesup.org>
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To: Christopher Blizzard <blizzard@mozilla.com>
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Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate
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On 9/7/2011 4:20 PM, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > On 9/7/2011 12:20 PM, Randell Jesup wrote: >> Splitting the two topics.... >> >> >> On 9/7/2011 3:07 AM, Olle E. Johansson wrote: >> >>> To fearlessly jump into another can of worms, I still think we >>> should have confidentiality - SRTP - by default. We know that these >>> applications will run on a myriad of devices on a myriad of networks >>> and it will not work to let users have to decided whether or not >>> they want confidentiality. If Skype did not have confidentiality by >>> default, there would be articles every summer and xmas in the >>> evening taboloids about how easy it is to listen in to your >>> neighbours calls and that would have hurted Skype badly. >>> >> >> There is a strong argument for this. The strongest argument for the >> other side is you don't need a media gateway to talk to non-WebRTC >> endpoints, just a signalling gateway. This means less delay >> potentially (especially if the application provider has gateways only >> in one geographic location) and less expense for the server provider >> for a pretty common usecase (gateway to PSTN). The delay could be a >> significant issue. >> It was also brought up that some usecases for internal PBX/business >> use would not need/prefer forced encryption. As mentioned at the >> meeting, encrypting to the media gateway only gets you a modicum of >> privacy (though it might protect you from the "neighbor's wifi >> capture" case). >> >> You could make forced-encryption the default, and allow the >> application control over whether to allow it is turned off for >> specific cases, like a PSTN call, or under the server's control. >> Signalling is secure, so it could even use a direct optional >> downgrade from SAVP* to AVP* (i.e. similar to the best-effort-strp >> draft) >> >> It's a tough call - guaranteed (local) security is nice, but I worry >> about those relay cases like taiwan->USA media gateway->taiwan. Not >> a huge deal on signaling/call-setup, but media... >> >> > > I want secure-by-default, maybe even secure-only. > > Even if it's not secure-only there's also an important UI > consideration depending how we end up doing that in browsers. In the > past we've made the secure mode special (the lock icon in the early > days, now the green/blue bar) but I think that we should be making the > insecure mode special. That is, always mark a connection as very > clearly unencrypted via UI affordances. Just like banks "wanting to > know how to get the lock icon" we should be making call sites "wanting > to know how to get rid of that huge ugly warning that makes us look bad." A "listening-ear" icon maybe? :-) Agreed on defaults, maybe on secure-only. I should note that if it's secure-to-media-gateway, that doesn't tell you if it's secure past that point, so the lack of the "listening-ear" icon doesn't really mean it's *really* secure. We discussed this some at the last IETF I think. If you can verify the receiver at the other end you may have more assurance about who you're talking to... but that's a tough question on it's own. My experience is that media gateways a great for NAT traversal, and are so-so to sucking for conversational quality unless they're very close to one or the other endpoint (and may not be great there), and they can have serious costs associated with them for the service. > > Once again, I would much prefer secure-only, but I'll take > secure-by-default across browsers if I can get it. > The proposal would put it under control of the application to allow; presumably only an app that included in their service access to legacy media endpoints would do so. I'll note that allowing this has minimal (not zero) security impact as this is UDP; a bigger issue with this might be ICE. Currently the ICE requirement make this idea rather moot, unless the app can control that too (typically this is used to connect to PSTN gateways that you don't need ICE to access). Without ICE there may be larger security issues per ekr's draft that just showed up; though I'll note that UDP isn't generally a major method of DoS or attack on a site. It might be used in theory for SPIT though; if that's a real threat in any volume that may kill this idea. -- Randell Jesup randell-ietf@jesup.org
- [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client acting… Elwell, John
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Dan York
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Elwell, John
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Olle E Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Dan York
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Igor Faynberg
- [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was RE:… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Elwell, John
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Elwell, John
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Robert O'Callahan
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Robert O'Callahan
- Re: [rtcweb] Remote recording - RTC-Web client ac… Elwell, John
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Asveren, Tolga
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Randell Jesup
- [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate (and offer/answer) Jonathan Lennox
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Christopher Blizzard
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate (and offer/answer) Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Christopher Blizzard
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Randell Jesup
- [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and offer… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Silvia Pfeiffer
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Michael Procter
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Jonathan Lennox
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- [rtcweb] Meeting Bridge and Webex link for Sept 8… Sohel Khan
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] Encryption mandate Christopher Blizzard
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Igor Faynberg
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser? Aaron Clauson
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Alan Johnston
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Alan Johnston
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Randell Jesup
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Timothy B. Terriberry
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser? Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Stefan Håkansson LK
- [rtcweb] SIP vs Websocket in RTCWeb [was RE: SIP … Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Matthew Kaufman
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP vs Websocket in RTCWeb [was RE: … Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Paul Kyzivat
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP vs Websocket in RTCWeb [was RE: … Dzonatas Sol
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP vs Websocket in RTCWeb [was RE: … Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Jozsef Vass
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Roman Shpount
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP vs Websocket in RTCWeb [was RE: … Peter Saint-Andre
- [rtcweb] signaling protocol SHANMUGALINGAM SIVASOTHY
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Hadriel Kaplan
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser? Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser? Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser? Ravindran Parthasarathi
- Re: [rtcweb] SIP MUST NOT be used in browser?[was… Muthu Arul Mozhi Perumal (mperumal)
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Tim Panton
- Re: [rtcweb] AVPF [was: Encryption mandate (and o… Dan Wing