Re: [rtcweb] Video codec selection - way forward

Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> Thu, 21 November 2013 20:18 UTC

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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 12:17:45 -0800
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To: Steve Kann <stevek@stevek.com>
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Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Video codec selection - way forward
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On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Steve Kann <stevek@stevek.com>; wrote:

>
> Do you plan to open-source your codec option generator?   It would make
> modifying the list much more efficient.
>


I was thinking of distributing it as a binary module you could link into
your
mail client.

-Ekr


>
>
>
> -Sent from an iOS mobile device
>
> On Nov 21, 2013, at 12:01 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>; wrote:
>
> I would like to propose some additional alternatives.
>
> SHOULD: Theora
> MUST: Theora
> SHOULD: H.261
> SHOULD: H.261 Theora
> MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.261
> MUST: H.261
> MUST: H.261; SHOULD: Theora
> MUST: H.261 Theora
> SHOULD: H.263
> SHOULD: H.263 Theora
> MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.263
> SHOULD: H.263 H.261
> SHOULD: H.263 H.261 Theora
> MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.263 H.261
> MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.263
> MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.263 Theora
> MUST: H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.263
> MUST: H.263
> MUST: H.263; SHOULD: Theora
> MUST: H.263 Theora
> MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.261
> MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.261 Theora
> MUST: H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.261
> MUST: H.263 H.261
> MUST: H.263 H.261; SHOULD: Theora
> MUST: H.263 H.261 Theora
> SHOULD: VP8
> SHOULD: VP8 Theora
> MUST: Theora; SHOULD: VP8
> SHOULD: VP8 H.261
> SHOULD: VP8 H.261 Theora
> MUST: Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.261
> MUST: H.261; SHOULD: VP8
> MUST: H.261; SHOULD: VP8 Theora
> MUST: H.261 Theora; SHOULD: VP8
> SHOULD: VP8 H.263
> SHOULD: VP8 H.263 Theora
> MUST: Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.263
> SHOULD: VP8 H.263 H.261
> SHOULD: VP8 H.263 H.261 Theora
> MUST: Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.263 H.261
> MUST: H.261; SHOULD: VP8 H.263
> MUST: H.261; SHOULD: VP8 H.263 Theora
> MUST: H.261 Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.263
> MUST: H.263; SHOULD: VP8
> MUST: H.263; SHOULD: VP8 Theora
> MUST: H.263 Theora; SHOULD: VP8
> MUST: H.263; SHOULD: VP8 H.261
> MUST: H.263; SHOULD: VP8 H.261 Theora
> MUST: H.263 Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.261
> MUST: H.263 H.261; SHOULD: VP8
> MUST: H.263 H.261; SHOULD: VP8 Theora
> MUST: H.263 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: VP8
> MUST: VP8
> MUST: VP8; SHOULD: Theora
> MUST: VP8 Theora
>  MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.261
> MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.261 Theora
> MUST: VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.261
> MUST: VP8 H.261
> MUST: VP8 H.261; SHOULD: Theora
> MUST: VP8 H.261 Theora
> MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.263
> MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.263 Theora
> MUST: VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.263
> MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.263 H.261
> MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.263 H.261 Theora
> MUST: VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.263 H.261
> MUST: VP8 H.261; SHOULD: H.263
> MUST: VP8 H.261; SHOULD: H.263 Theora
> MUST: VP8 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.263
> MUST: VP8 H.263
> MUST: VP8 H.263; SHOULD: Theora
> MUST: VP8 H.263 Theora
> MUST: VP8 H.263; SHOULD: H.261
> MUST: VP8 H.263; SHOULD: H.261 Theora
> MUST: VP8 H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.261
> MUST: VP8 H.263 H.261
> MUST: VP8 H.263 H.261; SHOULD: Theora
> MUST: VP8 H.263 H.261 Theora
> SHOULD: H.264
> SHOULD: H.264 Theora
> MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.264
> SHOULD: H.264 H.261
> SHOULD: H.264 H.261 Theora
> MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.261
> MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.264
> MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.264 Theora
> MUST: H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264
> SHOULD: H.264 H.263
> SHOULD: H.264 H.263 Theora
> MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.263
> SHOULD: H.264 H.263 H.261
> SHOULD: H.264 H.263 H.261 Theora
> MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.263 H.261
> MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.264 H.263
> MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.264 H.263 Theora
> MUST: H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.263
> MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.264
> MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.264 Theora
> MUST: H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.264
> MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.264 H.261
> MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.264 H.261 Theora
> MUST: H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.261
> MUST: H.263 H.261; SHOULD: H.264
> MUST: H.263 H.261; SHOULD: H.264 Theora
> MUST: H.263 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264
> SHOULD: H.264 VP8
> SHOULD: H.264 VP8 Theora
> MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8
> SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.261
> SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.261 Theora
> MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.261
> MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.264 VP8
> MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 Theora
> MUST: H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8
> SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263
> SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263 Theora
> MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263
> SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263 H.261
> SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263 H.261 Theora
> MUST: Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263 H.261
> MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263
> MUST: H.261; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263 Theora
> MUST: H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.263
> MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.264 VP8
> MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 Theora
> MUST: H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8
> MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.261
> MUST: H.263; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.261 Theora
> MUST: H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 H.261
> MUST: H.263 H.261; SHOULD: H.264 VP8
> MUST: H.263 H.261; SHOULD: H.264 VP8 Theora
> MUST: H.263 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 VP8
> MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.264
> MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.264 Theora
> MUST: VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.264
> MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.264 H.261
> MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.264 H.261 Theora
> MUST: VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.261
> MUST: VP8 H.261; SHOULD: H.264
> MUST: VP8 H.261; SHOULD: H.264 Theora
> MUST: VP8 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264
> MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.264 H.263
> MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.264 H.263 Theora
> MUST: VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.263
> MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.264 H.263 H.261
> MUST: VP8; SHOULD: H.264 H.263 H.261 Theora
> MUST: VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.263 H.261
> MUST: VP8 H.261; SHOULD: H.264 H.263
> MUST: VP8 H.261; SHOULD: H.264 H.263 Theora
> MUST: VP8 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.263
> MUST: VP8 H.263; SHOULD: H.264
> MUST: VP8 H.263; SHOULD: H.264 Theora
> MUST: VP8 H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.264
> MUST: VP8 H.263; SHOULD: H.264 H.261
> MUST: VP8 H.263; SHOULD: H.264 H.261 Theora
> MUST: VP8 H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.264 H.261
> MUST: VP8 H.263 H.261; SHOULD: H.264
> MUST: VP8 H.263 H.261; SHOULD: H.264 Theora
> MUST: VP8 H.263 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.264
> MUST: H.264
> MUST: H.264; SHOULD: Theora
> MUST: H.264 Theora
> MUST: H.264; SHOULD: H.261
> MUST: H.264; SHOULD: H.261 Theora
> MUST: H.264 Theora; SHOULD: H.261
> MUST: H.264 H.261
> MUST: H.264 H.261; SHOULD: Theora
> MUST: H.264 H.261 Theora
> MUST: H.264; SHOULD: H.263
> MUST: H.264; SHOULD: H.263 Theora
> MUST: H.264 Theora; SHOULD: H.263
> MUST: H.264; SHOULD: H.263 H.261
> MUST: H.264; SHOULD: H.263 H.261 Theora
> MUST: H.264 Theora; SHOULD: H.263 H.261
> MUST: H.264 H.261; SHOULD: H.263
> MUST: H.264 H.261; SHOULD: H.263 Theora
> MUST: H.264 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.263
> MUST: H.264 H.263
> MUST: H.264 H.263; SHOULD: Theora
> MUST: H.264 H.263 Theora
> MUST: H.264 H.263; SHOULD: H.261
> MUST: H.264 H.263; SHOULD: H.261 Theora
> MUST: H.264 H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.261
> MUST: H.264 H.263 H.261
> MUST: H.264 H.263 H.261; SHOULD: Theora
> MUST: H.264 H.263 H.261 Theora
> MUST: H.264; SHOULD: VP8
> MUST: H.264; SHOULD: VP8 Theora
> MUST: H.264 Theora; SHOULD: VP8
> MUST: H.264; SHOULD: VP8 H.261
> MUST: H.264; SHOULD: VP8 H.261 Theora
> MUST: H.264 Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.261
> MUST: H.264 H.261; SHOULD: VP8
> MUST: H.264 H.261; SHOULD: VP8 Theora
> MUST: H.264 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: VP8
> MUST: H.264; SHOULD: VP8 H.263
> MUST: H.264; SHOULD: VP8 H.263 Theora
> MUST: H.264 Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.263
> MUST: H.264; SHOULD: VP8 H.263 H.261
> MUST: H.264; SHOULD: VP8 H.263 H.261 Theora
> MUST: H.264 Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.263 H.261
> MUST: H.264 H.261; SHOULD: VP8 H.263
> MUST: H.264 H.261; SHOULD: VP8 H.263 Theora
> MUST: H.264 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.263
> MUST: H.264 H.263; SHOULD: VP8
> MUST: H.264 H.263; SHOULD: VP8 Theora
> MUST: H.264 H.263 Theora; SHOULD: VP8
> MUST: H.264 H.263; SHOULD: VP8 H.261
> MUST: H.264 H.263; SHOULD: VP8 H.261 Theora
> MUST: H.264 H.263 Theora; SHOULD: VP8 H.261
> MUST: H.264 H.263 H.261; SHOULD: VP8
> MUST: H.264 H.263 H.261; SHOULD: VP8 Theora
> MUST: H.264 H.263 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: VP8
> MUST: H.264 VP8
> MUST: H.264 VP8; SHOULD: Theora
> MUST: H.264 VP8 Theora
> MUST: H.264 VP8; SHOULD: H.261
> MUST: H.264 VP8; SHOULD: H.261 Theora
> MUST: H.264 VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.261
> MUST: H.264 VP8 H.261
> MUST: H.264 VP8 H.261; SHOULD: Theora
> MUST: H.264 VP8 H.261 Theora
> MUST: H.264 VP8; SHOULD: H.263
> MUST: H.264 VP8; SHOULD: H.263 Theora
> MUST: H.264 VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.263
> MUST: H.264 VP8; SHOULD: H.263 H.261
> MUST: H.264 VP8; SHOULD: H.263 H.261 Theora
> MUST: H.264 VP8 Theora; SHOULD: H.263 H.261
> MUST: H.264 VP8 H.261; SHOULD: H.263
> MUST: H.264 VP8 H.261; SHOULD: H.263 Theora
> MUST: H.264 VP8 H.261 Theora; SHOULD: H.263
> MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263
> MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263; SHOULD: Theora
> MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263 Theora
> MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263; SHOULD: H.261
> MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263; SHOULD: H.261 Theora
> MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263 Theora; SHOULD: H.261
> MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263 H.261
> MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263 H.261; SHOULD: Theora
> MUST: H.264 VP8 H.263 H.261 Theora
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.263, Theora}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.263, H.261}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.263, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 2 of {H.263, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 1 of {VP8, Theora}
> SHOULD do 1 of {VP8, H.261}
> SHOULD do 1 of {VP8, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 2 of {VP8, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 1 of {VP8, H.263}
> SHOULD do 1 of {VP8, H.263, Theora}
> SHOULD do 2 of {VP8, H.263, Theora}
> SHOULD do 1 of {VP8, H.263, H.261}
> SHOULD do 2 of {VP8, H.263, H.261}
> SHOULD do 1 of {VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 2 of {VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 3 of {VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, Theora}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, H.261}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, H.263}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, H.263, Theora}
> SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, H.263, Theora}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, H.263, H.261}
> SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, H.263, H.261}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 3 of {H.264, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, VP8}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, VP8, Theora}
> SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, VP8, Theora}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.261}
> SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.261}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 3 of {H.264, VP8, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.263}
> SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.263}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, Theora}
> SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, Theora}
> SHOULD do 3 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, Theora}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261}
> SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261}
> SHOULD do 3 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261}
> SHOULD do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 3 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> SHOULD do 4 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 1 of {H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 1 of {H.263, Theora}
> MUST do 1 of {H.263, H.261}
> MUST do 1 of {H.263, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 2 of {H.263, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 1 of {VP8, Theora}
> MUST do 1 of {VP8, H.261}
> MUST do 1 of {VP8, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 2 of {VP8, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 1 of {VP8, H.263}
> MUST do 1 of {VP8, H.263, Theora}
> MUST do 2 of {VP8, H.263, Theora}
> MUST do 1 of {VP8, H.263, H.261}
> MUST do 2 of {VP8, H.263, H.261}
> MUST do 1 of {VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 2 of {VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 3 of {VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 1 of {H.264, Theora}
> MUST do 1 of {H.264, H.261}
> MUST do 1 of {H.264, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 2 of {H.264, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 1 of {H.264, H.263}
> MUST do 1 of {H.264, H.263, Theora}
> MUST do 2 of {H.264, H.263, Theora}
> MUST do 1 of {H.264, H.263, H.261}
> MUST do 2 of {H.264, H.263, H.261}
> MUST do 1 of {H.264, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 2 of {H.264, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 3 of {H.264, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 1 of {H.264, VP8}
> MUST do 1 of {H.264, VP8, Theora}
> MUST do 2 of {H.264, VP8, Theora}
> MUST do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.261}
> MUST do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.261}
> MUST do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 3 of {H.264, VP8, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.263}
> MUST do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.263}
> MUST do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, Theora}
> MUST do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, Theora}
> MUST do 3 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, Theora}
> MUST do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261}
> MUST do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261}
> MUST do 3 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261}
> MUST do 1 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 2 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 3 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
> MUST do 4 of {H.264, VP8, H.263, H.261, Theora}
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>; wrote:
>
>>
>> Added a
>>
>> #11     • MUST implement at least two of {VP8, H.264 CBP, H.263}
>>
>>
>> On Nov 21, 2013, at 11:20 AM, David Singer <singer@apple.com>; wrote:
>>
>> > Chairs
>> >
>> > can we add this as an option to the formal list, so we get formal
>> feedback on its acceptability, please?
>> >
>> > “Like option ??, pick at least two of {VP8, H.264 CBP, H.263}”
>> >
>> >
>> > I think this may be the best (maybe only) way to tease out how much
>> risk people perceive.
>> >
>> > Many thanks
>> >
>> > On Nov 21, 2013, at 9:22 , Maik Merten <maikmerten@googlemail.com>;
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Cleary H.263 is preferable from an engineering standpoint (as is,
>> e.g., MPEG-1 Part 2): better performance, more deployments. The central
>> question is, however, if those can actually be implemented without some
>> sort of licensing.
>> >>
>> >> If they can: Aweseome! However, this may not be determinable without a
>> review by people who are knowledgeable in the field of IPR, i.e., "actual
>> lawyers". I understand that H.263 is not yet old enough to automatically be
>> considered "safe" (and neither is MPEG-1 Part 2, although it is closer).
>> >>
>> >> Best regards,
>> >>
>> >> Maik
>> >>
>> >> Am 20.11.2013 20:42, schrieb David Singer:
>> >>> I think we should think hard about H.263 instead of H.261 as the
>> third fallback.  Why?
>> >>>
>> >>> http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-H.263/
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> H.263 was first published in March 1996, so it's 17 years old.  The
>> restrictions (e.g. on picture size) are no WORSE than H.261.  Yes, more
>> recent amendments deal with this (and a plethora of other issues), so we’d
>> need to settle on which of those are mandatory (the usual profiling
>> discussion).
>> >>>
>> >>> There are 34 records in the patent database against H.261, mostly
>> from 1989 but one as recent as 2005 (though that is a re-file).  That's 2.2
>> (reciprocity), as was one other I checked.
>> >>>
>> >>> Rather surprisingly, there are only 31 against H.263!  The most
>> recent is 2011, and is also option 2.  Most are 1997-2001.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On this quick glance, H.263 appears no worse than H.261. IANAL (as I
>> am sure you have all noticed).
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> H.263 is much more widely supported and mandated.  It has been
>> mandated in the 3GPP specs for years (for lots of services, including
>> videoconf), and is effectively the fallback codec today in the industry, as
>> I understand.  It was ubiquitous in video telephony for years, and I
>> suspect many of those systems still ship it.
>> >>>
>> >>> So, would “MUST implement at least two of (H.264, VP8, H.263)” work?
>> >>>
>> >>> (I am asking the question, not even answering on behalf of my
>> company, yet.  Let’s get the issues on the table.)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> David Singer
>> >>> Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc.
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >
>> > David Singer
>> > Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc.
>> >
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