Re: [secdir] Routing loop attacks using IPv6 tunnels

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Tue, 15 September 2009 21:34 UTC

Return-Path: <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: secdir@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: secdir@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C7F3A6ACE; Tue, 15 Sep 2009 14:34:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.419
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.419 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.180, BAYES_00=-2.599]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kFtDmmrVLG1T; Tue, 15 Sep 2009 14:34:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pz0-f193.google.com (mail-pz0-f193.google.com [209.85.222.193]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DABE528C1F3; Tue, 15 Sep 2009 14:33:50 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by pzk31 with SMTP id 31so3757999pzk.23 for <multiple recipients>; Tue, 15 Sep 2009 14:34:36 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qNBmavgV5LjxCSjFVXWTHfls6Sxr2zwUwna+sXM04QQ=; b=Wrl62G58Aq4l1JZRY/KPHjnMZQpfTn6mAJaSC9TeYQaIBqtGDcep53N2GxOYaV9tix 3Rbou23k3mm11NRvIvLm06OeR7T6V+mDL6+mFE1vYZLYDnYyMVT0bnMTkPLvHIZOJIWB 0x8W6j3+B8Bl1lPWGJI4uq27QoY2PGrCrrDV0=
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=cLU36cJRNzgsXS/AlVQmPqPINfFnwJOZq5vfM2yZxGcoTPKwDdbjeac0kjK5dNIrTC RvSdHQkM3kmaY4l46FHLRB3zxVeA3OG6rA0X6stnBjgo+yqyOMajzmu9kY0m2ZSID74m pYNoo6Nc0PCvY0DkA/3ydBxwbbgFLluNk/7Ms=
Received: by 10.114.55.7 with SMTP id d7mr14647461waa.129.1253050476092; Tue, 15 Sep 2009 14:34:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?130.216.38.124? (stf-brian.sfac.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 23sm1654857pxi.5.2009.09.15.14.34.34 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 15 Sep 2009 14:34:35 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <4AB00868.4000107@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:34:32 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
References: <31484.26522.qm@web45503.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A106555B38@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <373420.97768.qm@web45509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A106599177@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <342868.34354.qm@web45502.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1065D7CB7@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <6B55F0F93C3E9D45AF283313B8D342BA0440F47F@TK5EX14MBXW652.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <702481.50824.qm@web45515.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1065D80A0@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <309242.20809.qm@web45513.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A106624B24@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com><4AAAD7C1.2060709@gmail.com><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A106624BD7@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com><4AAAF8C8.6010103@gmail.com><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10665C90F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4AAF11ED.3000300@gmail.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10665CEB5@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing .com>
In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10665CEB5@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Cc: v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, Christian Huitema <huitema@microsoft.com>, ipv6@ietf.org, secdir@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [secdir] Routing loop attacks using IPv6 tunnels
X-BeenThere: secdir@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Security Area Directorate <secdir.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdir>, <mailto:secdir-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/secdir>
List-Post: <mailto:secdir@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:secdir-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/secdir>, <mailto:secdir-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:34:26 -0000

(one word reply in line...)

On 2009-09-16 03:34, Templin, Fred L wrote:
> Brian,
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 9:03 PM
>> To: Templin, Fred L
>> Cc: v6ops; Christian Huitema; ipv6@ietf.org; secdir@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: Routing loop attacks using IPv6 tunnels
>>
>> On 2009-09-15 04:25, Templin, Fred L wrote:
>>> Brian,
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 6:27 PM
>>>> To: Templin, Fred L
>>>> Cc: v6ops; Christian Huitema; ipv6@ietf.org; secdir@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: Routing loop attacks using IPv6 tunnels
>>>>
>>>> On 2009-09-12 11:12, Templin, Fred L wrote:
>>>>> Brian,
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 4:06 PM
>>>>>> To: Templin, Fred L
>>>>>> Cc: Christian Huitema; v6ops; ipv6@ietf.org; secdir@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Routing loop attacks using IPv6 tunnels
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2009-09-12 09:13, Templin, Fred L wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (much text deleted)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Otherwise, the best solution IMHO
>>>>>>> would be to allow only routers (and not hosts) on the
>>>>>>> virtual links.
>>>>>> This was of course the original intention for 6to4, so
>>>>>> that any misconfiguration issues could be limited to presumably
>>>>>> trusted staff and boxes. Unfortunately, reality has turned out
>>>>>> to be different, with host-based automatic tunnels becoming
>>>>>> popular.
>>>>> Thanks. I was rethinking this a bit after sending, and
>>>>> I may have been too premature in saying routers only
>>>>> and not hosts.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I would rather have said was that mechanisms such as
>>>>> SEcure Neighbor Discovery (SEND) may be helpful in private
>>>>> addressing domains where spoofing is possible. Let me know
>>>>> if this makes sense.
>>>> Except for the practical problems involved in deploying SEND.
>>> Can it be said that there is any appreciable operational
>>> experience with SEND yet? Are there implementations?
>> I'd like to know that too.
>>
>>>> We still have an issue in unmanaged networks.
>>> By "unmanaged", how unmanaged do you mean?
>> I was thinking of home networks, the kind where Teredo or
>> 6to4 starts up spontaneously. Probably not a concern for
>> ISATAP sites.
> 
> OK, thanks for the clarification. I think you probably
> mean home networks where the home gateway has not yet
> been turned into an ISATAP router - else, it would be
> a managed network. Does that sound right?

Yes
   Brian
> 
> Fred
> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
> 
>>     Brian
>>
>>> ISATAP is
>>> intended for networks where there is at least some modicum
>>> of cooperative management. We want that it can also be used
>>> in "loosly" managed networks where there is an overall mutual
>>> spirit of cooperation but where site-internal link-layer
>>> address spoofing may still be possible. Can SEND be used
>>> for that, or do we need something else in addition (e.g.,
>>> a nonce with every message)?
>>>
>>> Thanks - Fred
>>> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
>>>
>>>>     Brian
>>>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>>>> ipv6@ietf.org
>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>>>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>