Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case - Re: Size of CR in CRH
Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com> Fri, 29 May 2020 10:24 UTC
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To: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Cc: 6man <6man@ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" <ketant@cisco.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>, "Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" <weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com>, "rtg-ads@ietf.org" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
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From: Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com>
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Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 12:24:48 +0200
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Subject: Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case - Re: Size of CR in CRH
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On 29/05/2020 12:12, Gyan Mishra wrote: > > > On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 5:11 AM Peter Psenak > <ppsenak=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> > wrote: > > Hi Ron, > > On 28/05/2020 18:55, Ron Bonica wrote: > > Weibin, > > > > Inline….. > > > > Ron > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > *From:* Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai) > <weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com <mailto:weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com>> > > *Sent:* Thursday, May 28, 2020 10:35 AM > > *To:* Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com > <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>; Ron Bonica > > <rbonica@juniper.net <mailto:rbonica@juniper.net>>; Joel M. > Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>> > > *Cc:* rtg-ads@ietf.org <mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org>; spring@ietf.org > <mailto:spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org>> > > *Subject:* RE: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case - Re: > Size of > > CR in CRH > > > > *[External Email. Be cautious of content]* > > > > Hi Ron, > > > > After reading through many mails related to CRH in list, I found all > > CRH-SIDs (allocated to prefix-sid <loosely forwarding>and > Adj-sid<strict > > forwarding>) are of local significance in fact, its operation > actually > > is not same as MPLS Label nor SR-MPLS label (such as domain-wide > prefix > > SID/label), all CRH-SIDs are locally allocated by node itself > based on > > local FIB6, independent of other CRH-SID allocated by other nodes > in CRH > > domain; so every node (Maybe except ingress PE of CRH domain) > has no > > useful to learn other SIDs allocated by other nodes by IGP-extension > > advertising. Its deployment must have controller (considering > dynamic > > mechanism), the controller learn all CRH-SIDs from each node to > program > > the source path under path calculation requirement from ingress PE. > > > > [RB] Absolutely correct !! > > if CRH-SIDs are of local significance how is the loose source routing > going to be supported? > > Or is CRH only supposed to be used for strict hop-by-hop source > routing? > If so, the use case would be quite limited. > > Honestly, strictly technically, I do not see much difference between > CRH > and RFC8663 & RFC4023 combo. Former uses an extra extension header, the > latter uses the next-header. Rest looks same. > > > Gyan> Peter - You mentioned a key point which is is a major > difference. > > I thank you for pointing out this critical point for everyone in both > Spring WG & 6MAN WG -now one big happy family🙏😀 > > With RFC 8663 SR-MPLS over > IPV6 using RFC 4023 w/o GRE with IPv6 encap here is what the end result > of the packet looks like: > > SR-MPLS over IPv6 = Next header encapsulation > > IPv6 | SR-MPLS |. Customer payload > > Operators wanting CRH don’t want the MPLS Layer 2 1/2 MPLS data plane > insertion into the packet mucking up the packet and want to stay clear > of MPLS since they want a clean and pure IPV6 packet that follows RFC > 8200 IPV6 specification. you don't want MPLS, so you wrap the same data to a new extension header and give it a new name. And you suddenly like it. Hmm, does not sound like a solid technical argument to me. thanks, Peter > > So the use case for RFC 8663 is very different as it is widely deployed > for interworking SR-MPLS with SRV6 - Outlined in Mirsky draft below: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-06 > > CRH is no different then using any other routing header proposal such as > 6lo for RPL. > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8138 > > CRH Packet format: > > IPV6 CRH | Customer payload > > The additional encapsulation makes a big difference and it’s really > apples versus oranges and not the same at all. > > > Why would any operator use SR-MPLS over IP to for steering traffic if > they have an existing IPV6 data plane they want to utilize. > > They would use SRv6 or CRH and would pick CRH to avoid MSD (maximum sid > depth) issues for long strict paths and not have to deal with extra > complexity of all the compression variants. > > > Decision tree: > If an operator wanted an MPLS data plane variant they would go with > SR-MPLS but if they want IPV6 data plane variant they obviously would > pick an option that uses IPv6 data plane and that would be the SRV6 or CRH. > > In order to even remotely justify from my point of view that SR-MPLS > over IPv6 would used for anything other than the obvious “interworking” > between SR-MPLS and SRV6, you would really have to prove that an > operator is willing to add MPLS into the mix when they want IPV6. Not > possible. > > I can guarantee no operator would do that. > > > > thanks, > Peter > > > > > > > I suggested you should describe more detail about how to create > CRH-SID > > entry (in CRH-FIB) in this CRH draft, is it based on local FIB6, > if it > > is, how to do synchronization between CRH-FIB and FIB6? > > > > [RB] In some deployment scenarios, the IPv6 FIB and the CRH-FIB are > > populated by an IGP. Please review and comment on the IS-IS CRH > document > > > <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bonica-lsr-crh-isis-extensions/>. > I > > am excited to collaborate with you on that . > > > > [RB] In other deployment scenarios, the IPv6 FIB and / or the > CRH-FIB > > are populated by a controller. If you are interested in that > scenario, > > again, we would be excited to collaborate with you. > > > > Ron > > > > Above is my understanding, if not right,pls correct me. > > > > Wang Weibin > > > > *From:*ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> > <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org>>> *On > > Behalf Of *Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) > > *Sent:* 2020年5月28日19:46 > > *To:* Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> > > <mailto:rbonica <mailto:rbonica>=40juniper..net@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>>>; Joel M. Halpern > > <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com> > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>> > > *Cc:* rtg-ads@ietf.org <mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org> > <mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org <mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org>>; spring@ietf.org > <mailto:spring@ietf.org> > > <mailto:spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; 6man > <6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org> <mailto:6man@ietf.org > <mailto:6man@ietf.org>>> > > *Subject:* RE: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case - Re: > Size of > > CR in CRH > > > > Hi Ron, > > > > Some of the operators may not care about the SR name, but it is > clear to > > me that the proposal in the CRH draft is a subset of Segment Routing > > (i.e. a reduced portion of Spring Architecture) that only supports > > prefix and adjacency SIDs as indicated by the two "forwarding > methods". > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-6man-comp-rtg-hdr-22#section-4 > > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-6man-comp-rtg-hdr-22*section-4__;Iw!!NEt6yMaO-gk!VMgRZ_fS_8pBN886aeeU1sFZpteVAkwQNu6xqWRsR27VhEn_wpAuXmcCngHDrhN8$> > > > > o Forward the packet to the next-hop along the least-cost > path to > > *>>> Prefix SID* > > > > the next segment endpoint. > > > > o Forward the packet through a specified interface to the > next *>>> > > Adjacency SID* > > > > segment endpoint. > > > > Given the use of mapping IDs and mapping FIB, the proposal is > comparable > > more to SR-MPLS than SRv6. It is better to do a holistic analysis > of any > > proposal such as CRH that is introducing an MPLS label like mapping > > construct into IPv6 architecture - doing so should be considered > as a > > significant change to IPv6. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ketan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> > > <mailto:rbonica <mailto:rbonica>=40juniper..net@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>>> > > > > Sent: 25 May 2020 21:14 > > > > To: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com > <mailto:ketant@cisco.com> > > <mailto:ketant@cisco.com <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>>; Joel M. > Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com> > > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>> > > > > Cc: rtg-ads@ietf..org <mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org> > <mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org <mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org>>; spring@ietf.org > <mailto:spring@ietf.org> > > <mailto:spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; 6man > <6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org> <mailto:6man@ietf.org > <mailto:6man@ietf.org>>> > > > > Subject: RE: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case - Re: > Size of > > CR in CRH > > > > Ketan, > > > > It would not be fair to say that these operators "wish to deploy a > > Traffic Engineering solution using a subset of Segment Routing". > > > > It would be fair to say that these operators "wish to deploy IPv6 > > Traffic Engineering". Some of these operators don't care about > SR. Some > > are actively averse to SRv6. All they want is a Routing header. > > > > Ron > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) > <ketant=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40cisco..com@dmarc.ietf.org> > > <mailto:ketant <mailto:ketant>=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>> > > > > Sent: Monday, May 25, 2020 5:21 AM > > > > To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net <mailto:rbonica@juniper.net> > <mailto:rbonica@juniper.net <mailto:rbonica@juniper.net>>>; Joel > > M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com> > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>> > > > > Cc: rtg-ads@ietf..org <mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org> > <mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org <mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org>>; spring@ietf.org > <mailto:spring@ietf.org> > > <mailto:spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; 6man > <6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org> <mailto:6man@ietf.org > <mailto:6man@ietf.org>>> > > > > Subject: RE: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case - Re: > Size of > > CR in CRH > > > > [External Email. Be cautious of content] > > > > Hi Ron, > > > > Thanks for that clarification. > > > > I note that you are not anymore saying "Are not interested in SR" > like > > you had mentioned before the WG adoption call : > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/LheyFD_uwuHp7tiG8Y1CwKngDYI/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!X2qW2zTZEbZRfBSE6c_KM-k7aIvZTIT9bycp3jyFJ3sTbf8MtGo4E_uGX7zYZ7lk$ > > > > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/LheyFD_uwuHp7tiG8Y1CwKngDYI/__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!X2qW2zTZEbZRfBSE6c_KM-k7aIvZTIT9bycp3jyFJ3sTbf8MtGo4E_uGX7zYZ7lk$> > > > > So, would it be fair to say that the operator that you are > referring to > > below, wishes to deploy a Traffic Engineering solution using a > subset of > > Segment Routing (i.e. a reduced portion of Spring Architecture) that > > only supports prefix and adjacency SIDs as indicated by the two > > "forwarding methods" that are referred to in > draft-bonica-6man-comp-rtg-hdr? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ketan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> > > <mailto:rbonica <mailto:rbonica>=40juniper..net@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>>> > > > > Sent: 25 May 2020 09:03 > > > > To: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com > <mailto:ketant@cisco.com> > > <mailto:ketant@cisco.com <mailto:ketant@cisco.com>>>; Joel M. > Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com> > > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>> > > > > Cc: rtg-ads@ietf..org <mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org> > <mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org <mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org>>; spring@ietf.org > <mailto:spring@ietf.org> > > <mailto:spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; 6man > <6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org> <mailto:6man@ietf.org > <mailto:6man@ietf.org>>> > > > > Subject: RE: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case - Re: > Size of > > CR in CRH > > > > Ketan, > > > > Please consider an operator who: > > > > - Wants a way to steer IPv6 packets through a specified path that > > includes many nodes (>8) > > > > - Does not want any of the following: > > > > - A new VPN encapsulation technique > > > > - A new service function chaining technique > > > > - Network programming > > > > - MPLS and uSID > > > > - To encoding instructions in IPv6 addresses. > > > > These operators want a compact routing header, nothing more. > > > > > Ron > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> > <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org>>> On > > Behalf Of Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2020 1:42 AM > > > > To: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com> <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com > <mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com>>> > > > > Cc: rtg-ads@ietf..org <mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org> > <mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org <mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org>>; spring@ietf.org > <mailto:spring@ietf.org> > > <mailto:spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>>; 6man > <6man@ietf.org <mailto:6man@ietf.org> <mailto:6man@ietf.org > <mailto:6man@ietf.org>>> > > > > Subject: RE: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case - Re: > Size of > > CR in CRH > > > > [SNIP] > > > > I am looking for explanation of the "other ways" that CRH can be > used > > (i.e. those outside the Spring architecture). I am trying to > understand > > from the authors what would be the applicability of that > solution, it's > > use-cases and it's requirements. That is what, I believe, will > help us > > evaluate the CRH proposal in the context of this working call. > That will > > help us answer these questions like the scope of the SID, 32-bit or > > 16-bit or something else and what the CRH-FIB is going to turn > out like. > > > > [SNIP] > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > <http://www.verizon.com/> > > *Gyan Mishra* > > /Network Solutions A//rchitect / > > /M 301 502-1347 > 13101 Columbia Pike > /Silver Spring, MD > >
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Bob Hinden
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case - Re:… Zafar Ali (zali)
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Chengli (Cheng Li)
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Andrew Alston
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Andrew Alston
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Tom Herbert
- [spring] 答复: CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Aijun Wang
- Re: [spring] 答复: CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Ca… Andrew Alston
- Re: [spring] 答复: CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Ca… Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] 答复: CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Ca… Aijun Wang
- Re: [spring] 答复: CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Ca… Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: [spring] 答复: CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Ca… Aijun Wang
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Sander Steffann
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… otroan
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Sander Steffann
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ole Troan
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ron Bonica
- [spring] What's the colour of the hat (was: Re: C… otroan
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Andrew Alston
- Re: [spring] What's the colour of the hat (was: R… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] What's the colour of the hat (was: R… Sander Steffann
- Re: [spring] What's the colour of the hat (was: R… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] What's the colour of the hat (was: R… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Srihari Sangli
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Fernando Gont
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ron Bonica
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Peter Psenak
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Peter Psenak
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… John Scudder
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Peter Psenak
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… John Scudder
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Peter Psenak
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… John Scudder
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Peter Psenak
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)
- Re: [spring] CRH is back to the SPRING Use-Case -… Robert Raszuk