Re: [tcpm] Feedbackt on draft-ietf-tcpm-tcpsecure-13.txt

"Smith, Donald" <Donald.Smith@qwest.com> Tue, 18 May 2010 21:35 UTC

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From: "Smith, Donald" <Donald.Smith@qwest.com>
To: "'Anantha Ramaiah (ananth)'" <ananth@cisco.com>, "'tcpm@ietf.org'" <tcpm@ietf.org>, "'The IESG'" <iesg@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 15:35:11 -0600
Thread-Topic: [tcpm] Feedbackt on draft-ietf-tcpm-tcpsecure-13.txt
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Feedbackt on draft-ietf-tcpm-tcpsecure-13.txt
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(coffee != sleep) & (!coffee == sleep)
Donald.Smith@qwest.com gcia

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anantha Ramaiah (ananth) [mailto:ananth@cisco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 2:32 PM
> To: Smith, Donald; tcpm@ietf.org; The IESG
> Subject: RE: [tcpm] Feedbackt on draft-ietf-tcpm-tcpsecure-13.txt
>
> Smith,
>     Comments inline..
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tcpm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:tcpm-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Smith, Donald
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 12:18 PM
> > To: 'tcpm@ietf.org WG'; 'The IESG'
> > Subject: Re: [tcpm] Feedbackt on draft-ietf-tcpm-tcpsecure-13.txt
> >
> > First throughout this draft the authors refer to sequence
> > number checking where they really mean acknowledgement number
> > checking:( You can't quite do :g/sequence
>
> Incorrect. RST and SYN mitigtations talk about the sequence number
> checking.
> The ACK number is not relevant as far as the mitigation
> themselves are cocnerned. Data mitigation talks about the ACK
> number. We
> had added more text to make sure such ambiguity was removed when the
> data mitigation was discussed in response to WG comments.
>
>
> > number/s//acknowledgement number/g as in a few places it is
> > the senders sequence number they are discussing.
> > The authors also use "the exact expected sequence number" a lot.
> > I think they mean: last sent sequence number + the data length sent
>
> Nope, exact sequence number is RCV.NXT (which is the exact sequence
> number) RCV.NXT + RCV.WND -1 is the right edge.  Any sequence number
> which falls in this window is considered valid. These are all
> terminology borrowed from RFC 793 and we are not changing those.
ok.

>
> >
> > This looks a LOT like gonts draft but may be an attempt to
> > address just one issue identified here.
> >
> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-tcp-security-00#section-3.4
>
> What? TCP secure draft was first published in 2004/2005 after which
> followed informational RFC on "TCP spoofing attacks" , ICMP attacks,
> port randomization and then Gont's draft. TCP secure, FWIW, was an
> inspiration to all these drafts (with due acknowledgements to Watson's
> "slipping in the window" paper)
Ok
>
> Probably Gont's draft should refer this draft if not already doing so.
It references the 10th version of the draft.

>
> Were you not really following this document, this has been floating
> around for the last 5+ years in the IETF ?
I only joined this group a a year or so ago so no I haven't following this draft.

>
> >
> >
> > This is slightly incorrect. In window would include an exact
> > match for rcv.net+rcv.wnd so the right side should be =<.
> > The wording for how to do the challenge ack is a bit
> > difficult to follow too.
>
> Why? This has been reviewed by many folks and the way it is : i.e,
> quoting the RFC 793 text FIRST and then quoting the
> mitigations NEXT was
> easier to follow. I don't plan to change the WG decision.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >    3) If the RST bit is set and the sequence number does not exactly
> >       match the next expected sequence value, yet is within
> > the current
> >       receive window (RCV.NXT < SEG.SEQ < RCV.NXT+RCV.WND), TCP MUST
> >       send an acknowledgment (challenge ACK):
> >
> >       <SEQ=SND.NXT><ACK=RCV.NXT><CTL=ACK>
> >
> > Ramaiah, et al.         Expires November 4, 2010
> >   [Page 9]
> > Internet-Draft                TCP Security
> >   May 2010
> >
> >       After sending the challenge ACK, TCP MUST drop the
> unacceptable
> >       segment and stop processing the incoming packet
> > further.  Further
> >       segments destined to this connection will be processed
> > as normal.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >    3) If the RST bit is set and the sequence number does not exactly
> >       match the next expected sequence value, yet is within
> > the current
> >       receive window (RCV.NXT < SEG.SEQ =<
> RCV.NXT+RCV.WND), TCP MUST
> >       send an acknowledgment (challenge ACK):
>
> Again this is the RFC 793 language, we haven't changed it. (Pl see RFC
> 793 page 69, acceptability checks)
Ok. Reviewed (again) your correct the language is consistent.

>
> >
> >       <SEQ=SND.NXT><ACK=RCV.NXT><CTL=ACK>
>
> The challenge ACK is what matters and you should be looking into.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ramaiah, et al.         Expires November 4, 2010
> >   [Page 9]
> >
> > Internet-Draft                TCP Security
> >   May 2010
> >
> >
> >       After sending the challenge ACK, TCP MUST silently drop
> > the in window
> >       but not exact match segment and stop processing it.
> Additional
> >       segments destined to this connection MUST be processed
> > as normal.
> >
> > That last line is really extraneous. You don't say what
> > happens to the packets before this event I am not sure you
> > have to say handle the next packet per normal behavior;) The
> > authors need to explain exactly what that challenge ACK looks like.
> > I think it is the same 4 tuple, ack = last sent ack, seq =
> > last sent seq (no data).
>
> Well, you can go on explaining each and everything, we had chosen to
> stick to the RFC 793 language, in other words, the intention is affect
> only the portion of RFC 793 and rest is exactly what RFC 793
> says. If we
> add additional text that would really add to the confusion. This was
> atleast the rationale and WG had agreed to such thinking w.r.t this
> draft.

People wrote books about rfc793 because it was a bit difficult to follow but
if that was the decision of the WG I withdraw my suggestions.

>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Still on page 9.
> > In all states except SYN-SENT, all reset (RST) segments are
> validated
> >    by checking their SEQ-fields [sequence numbers].  A reset
> > is valid if
> >    its sequence number exactly matches the next expected sequence
> >    number.  If the RST arrives and its sequence number
> field does NOT
> >    match the next expected sequence number but is within the window,
> >    then the receiver should generate an ACK.  In all other
> cases where
> >    the SEQ-field does not match and is outside the window,
> > the receiver
> >    MUST silently discard the segment.
> >
> >
> > Should be:
> > In all states except SYN-SENT, all reset (RST) segments are
> validated
> >    by checking their ACK-fields [acknowledgement numbers].  A
>
> Incorrect. It is the sequence number that needs to be validated first,
> please read RFC 793. (Page 37 RFC 793)
>
> > reset is valid if
> >    its acknowledgement number exactly matches the last sent
> > sequence number + the data length sent.
> >    If the RST arrives and its acknowledgement number field does NOT
> >    match the last sent sequence number + the data length sent
> > but is within the window,
> >    then the receiver SHOULD (or MUST?) generate an ACK.  In
> > all other cases where
> >    the ACK-field does not match and is outside the window,
> > the receiver
> >    MUST silently discard the segment.
> >
> >
> >
> > (coffee != sleep) & (!coffee == sleep)
>
> Not sure which of the above caused confusion ;-)
Perhaps a lack of coffee (or sleep:)

>
> -Anantha
>
>

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