Re: [Udp35] Trying to learn about udp35

Spencer Dawkins <> Thu, 22 May 2014 08:37 UTC

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Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 03:37:03 -0500
From: Spencer Dawkins <>
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Subject: Re: [Udp35] Trying to learn about udp35
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Hi, Michael (and all),

I've seen notes from Joe and Brian, but I'm replying to yours.

The most important thing I've seen someone say is ... please don't stop 
the analysis work you're doing on piece A, on the TAPS mailing list. We 
set up a separate mailing list for big-picture noodling about several 
pieces and how they fit together, so that our conversation here wouldn't 
be a distraction for TAPS.

Creating one or more working groups isn't the end game, so let's not be 
distracted by that, either. Figuring out how to solve an important 
problem that people have been banging their heads against for a few 
decades, and get applications to take advantage of transport mechanisms 
that aren't TCP and aren't UDP so that evolving transport makes a 
difference to the way the Internet works, is the end game, at least in 
my mind. We don't need to have a BOF at all, if we can come up with a 
plan without one.

If not having a working group creates obstructions, please let us know. 
For now, TAPS has an e-mail list and can do the analysis work there. You 
don't have an approved charter yet, but TAPS doesn't need one to talk. 
You don't need an approved charter to have a design session in Toronto, 
assuming that you don't need 100 people charging their laptops and 
reading e-mail in the same room while people make Powerpoint 
presentations to make progress. If TAPS needs something else to move 
forward, please tell us.

I think the TAPS conversation in London was successful in setting a 
direction. My read is that at least some of the other IESG and IAB 
members agree with that. I note that TAPS was one of only two topics 
from the IESG for the joint IESG/IAB session at the retreat a couple of 
weeks ago, and joint IESG/IAB face-to-face time is precious enough that 
we don't spend it on stuff that doesn't matter.

The IAB folk can correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the UDP35 topics is 
that IAB folk are proposing that the IAB charter a program in this space 
*in addition to TAPS*, and I would like to see them providing a home for 
architectural work beyond "here's a protocol spec or two", which is what 
an IETF working group would provide. I'd like to have the IAB's 
perspective inform any engineering work the IESG charters in the IETF.

For the purposes of the UDP35 discussion, I don't want the Saturday 
afternoon session in Toronto to be the tail that wags the dog. The 
reason we mention it at all was to let people know we'd like to have 
that session before everyone books their tickets to arrive Sunday morning:-)

We need to be talking now, mostly in e-mail. We do need to level-set 
early in that conversation, and that's harder to do via e-mail. I would 
like to see a kickoff call among the folks on this mailing list, and 
sooner rather than later. I hope scheduling it during the week of June 2 
is realistic.

If no one else sends out a doodle poll this week for a kickoff call the 
week of June , I'll do it Monday.

Does this make sense?


Spencer, who will be traveling for the next several hours ... so please, 
don't wait for me to talk amongst yourselves :-)

On 05/21/2014 12:05 PM, Michael Welzl wrote:
> Hi all,
> Glad to be onboard!
> As for the slide deck, it looks very interesting but it also reminds me of much that we have already discussed in the TAPS effort. Note that this non-WG-forming BOF in London was preceded by a bar BOF, which was preceded by more work ... e.g. we have worked out a draft charter at some point, and agreed to do things pretty similar to what seems to be proposed in these slides. Now surely I'm missing the bigger picture here, but I'd like to make a plea to not go back to square one but instead continue from where things already are at (see ). If this means having a WG-forming BoF in Toronto, then I guess it's about time to get this organized.
> I can imagine that we want to do more than what we have written into our charter, but what I'm suggesting is not to wait with piece A of the puzzle just because we in fact want pieces A, B and perhaps C too, and we have to still find out if/how to do pieces B and C. I'm having a hard time imagining that piece A just won't fit, whatever B and C may look like, so why not get A done?!
> Cheers,
> Michael
> On 21. mai 2014, at 12:30, Brian Trammell <> wrote:
>> hi Jana, all,
>> Apologies for silence to date on this point; I'm traveling way too much this month. The basic problem statement is hidden in the slide deck I presented at the IESG/IAB meeting in Cancun, attached. We'll want to have a level setting call (most probably early next week) to expand upon this.
>> Cheers,
>> Brian
>> <udp35-cancun.pdf>
>> On 20 May 2014, at 19:54, Jana Iyengar <> wrote:
>>> Thanks for the update, Spencer; I'll look for the poll. I would like to make travel arrangements soon, and I'm waiting to hear about when the pre-IETF meeting will be held so that I can book accordingly. I'd like to book soon, so I hope to hear about the schedule soon ... but if nothing's been finalized yet, I understand.
>>> On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Spencer Dawkins <> wrote:
>>> On 05/13/2014 10:47 AM, Jana Iyengar wrote:
>>> Hello all,
>>> I'm writing to learn more about udp35 and the secret cabal meeting that is allegedly happening Saturday evening before the IETF. Can someone post a link or some summary of the goals of this group?
>>> Thanks much!
>>> - jana
>>> Hi, Jana,
>>> If I understood correctly, the plan is that we'll schedule a conference call Real Soon Now to level-set folks, just as soon as someone sends out a doodle poll so we can figure out when :-)
>>> So, please stay tuned ...
>>> Spencer
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