RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn
"Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> Fri, 15 May 2009 19:40 UTC
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Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 12:36:12 -0700
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Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn
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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: Sheng Jiang <shengjiang@huawei.com>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "Fleischman, Eric" <eric.fleischman@boeing.com>, "Russert, Steven W" <steven.w.russert@boeing.com>, Rémi Després <remi.despres@free.fr>
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> -----Original Message----- > From: Templin, Fred L > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 5:18 AM > To: Sheng Jiang; Brian E Carpenter > Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; Fleischman, Eric; Russert, Steven W; Rémi Després > Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > Hi Sheng, > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com] > > Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 7:12 PM > > To: Templin, Fred L; 'Brian E Carpenter' > > Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; Fleischman, Eric; Russert, Steven W; 'Rémi Després' > > Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > > > Fred, > > > > Thanks for your comments. > > > > Although I can agree on you the disadvantages of anycast, anycast has its > > advantages and suitable scenarios, too. Furthermore, I don't think 6rd > > depends on anycast. Remi may give us clarification. > > As near as I can tell, the contribution of 6rd is the > definition of a "stateless" prefix delegation mechanism; > everything else is just intra-site tunneling, and 6rd > would do well to look at the ISATAP/VET mechanisms that > already handle this. With this said, I'd like to propose something toward Remi. You will be wanting some way for CPE devices to discover the ISP's 6rd-relays IPv6 prefix. This can be easily accommodated by defining a new DHCPv6 option (the "6rd Prefix Option"?) for which the sole purpose is to convey a prefix and prefix length. The CPE device can then use Stateless DHCPv6 to obtain the prefix from a relay/server in the ISP network via IPv6/IPv4 tunneling. The address of the relay/server can be discovered using the PRL discovery mechanisms of ISATAP [RFC5214]. Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > Thanks - Fred > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > > However, our draft does no intend to make judge of 6rd, or other tunnel > > techonogies. We actually would like to list serveral suitable tunnel > > techonogies with brief introductions in order to complete our puzzle. As we > > ready state in the draft, "ISATAP or VET are also be considered." Actually, > > one thing we can do for next version is to expand this section a little bit, > > to include brief introductions for Auto GRE, ISATAP and VET. However, we > > also think 6rd is suitable and do not want to rule it out. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Sheng > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Templin, Fred L [mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com] > > > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 7:02 AM > > > To: Brian E Carpenter > > > Cc: Sheng Jiang; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; > > > Fleischman, Eric; Russert, Steven W; Rémi Després > > > Subject: RE: New Version Notification for > > > draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 3:50 PM > > > > To: Templin, Fred L > > > > Cc: Sheng Jiang; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; Fleischman, > > > > Eric; Russert, Steven W; Rémi Després > > > > Subject: Re: New Version Notification for > > > > draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > > > > > > > Fred, > > > > > > > > (My previous message was somewhat inscrutable. See in-line.) > > > > > > > > On 2009-05-15 03:17, Templin, Fred L wrote: > > > > > Dear authors, > > > > > > > > > > The document is clean and concise, which is appreciated. > > > > > However, section 3.2 seems to be showing preference toward a > > > > > particular tunneling technology, and I'd like to understand that > > > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > To understand this, we must first observe that the 6rd approach > > > > > relies on anycast for CPE router accessing of > > > > > IPv6 routers within the IPv4 ISP network. The idea of anycast was > > > > > entertained and abandoned by the ISATAP team in the 2001/2002 > > > > > timeframe when ISATAP was still being developed in the ngtrans > > > > > working group. This came after much discussion among authors and > > > > > guidance from the working group. Reasons include: > > > > > > > > > > 1) if the tunnel fragments, fragments of the same packet > > > > > may go to different anycast-addressed routers. > > > > > > > > > > 2) with anycast, there is no opportunity for default > > > > > router selection (when there are multiple) > > > > > > > > > > 3) with anycast, there is no opportunity for traffic > > > > > engineering > > > > > > > > > > 4) with anycast, IPv6 neighbor discovery over the > > > > > tunnel may yield unpredictable results > > > > > > > > When I look at the 6rd draft, I don't really see why the > > > relay needs > > > > to be anycast - as far as I can see it could be genuinely unicast > > > > (since there is no semantic difference for the CPE or the > > > relay; it's > > > > only anycast if the ISP sets up its IGP to make it anycast). > > > > So the real question is how the CPE knows the 6rd relay > > > address, which > > > > is also a question for RFC3056. There are of course many possible > > > > answers to that, e.g. a DHCP(v4) option. > > > > > > ISATAP and VET already have answers for that ([RFC5214], > > > Sections 8.3.2 and 9). If 6rd wants to do the same thing, it > > > would just be re-inventing the wheel. > > > > > > > Personally I think a provisioned unicast address may be better, > > > > because of your points 1-4. > > > > > > Provisioned unicast addresses are already the subject matter > > > for ISATAP/VET Potential Router List (PRL) initialization. Is > > > a new spec needed? > > > > > > > > 5) with anycast, there is need for a manual provisioning > > > > > of IPv6 prefixes and IPv4 anycast address on the CPE > > > > > router. > > > > > > > > Which IPv6 prefixes? The CPE builds its IPv6 prefix from > > > its external > > > > IPv4 address, which it gets in the traditional way. > > > > > > The CPE needs to learn the provider's IPv6 prefix reserved > > > for 6rd purposes. Unless there is some form of automated > > > discovery (e.g., PIOs in RAs), the IPv6 prefix would need to > > > be manually provisioned. > > > > > > > > We next observe that the 6rd mechanism is rooted in a customized > > > > > IPv6 prefix configuration that embeds an > > > > > IPv4 address. First, this would require that a quite large IPv6 > > > > > prefix (e.g., a /24) be delegated to the ISP were its > > > customers to > > > > > obtain even a /56 as the largest possible prefix. Such a prefix > > > > > would be used only sparsely, as only a small portion of the IPv4 > > > > > address space may be available for assignment to CPE routers. > > > > > > > > Yes. Are we running out of /24s yet? > > > > > > Are we running out of /24s? I really don't know. Do I know > > > waste when I see it? I think so. > > > > > > > > Secondly, the only mode of operation afforded is > > > > > Provider-Aggregated, i.e., there is no provision for CPE use of > > > > > Provider-Independent prefixes. > > > > > > > > Yes. I would expect this method to be used for SOHO > > > subscribers, not > > > > for larger customers who might use PI. > > > > > > But, do you know what the service model will look like > > > 5-10yrs down the line? (Maybe coexisting wireless broadband > > > and cable modem?) Do you even know what a SOHO network will > > > look like 5-10yrs down the line? > > > PI is as some point going to become attractive to enterprises > > > of any size - not necessarily just the big ones. > > > > > > > > I suspect you know where I'm going with this, but take > > > each of the > > > > > deficiencies named above and apply VET, and you will see that VET > > > > > robustly covers all of these cases and more. Indeed, with > > > VET as the > > > > > phase 1 deployment, there would be no need for a phase 2, and no > > > > > need for any IPv6 readdressing as VET uses unmodified > > > IPv6 prefixes > > > > > natively. > > > > > > > > > > The VET model asks only that CPE routers become VET enterprise > > > > > border routers, that CGNs become VET enterprise border > > > gateways, and > > > > > that the ISP name service be provisioned with resource > > > records for > > > > > border gateway discovery. In other words, the VET > > > deployment touches > > > > > exactly the same CPE/PE equipment that the 6rd approach > > > touches, and > > > > > VET asks only that the ISP network administrators add a > > > few resource > > > > > records to the DNS. If there are doubts as to how VET > > > satisfies each > > > > > of these use cases, I will be happy to explain in follow-up. > > > > > > > > I don't see this for SOHO subscribers using $50 CPEs, > > > frankly, but I > > > > could be wrong. > > > > > > Let's just have an awareness about this up front. Then, we > > > will have to explain to the customers years down the line why > > > we copped out and gave them a moped when they could have had a 'VET. > > > > > > Fred > > > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your section 3.6, we note a strong recommendation for a tunnel > > > > > MTU of at least 1500 bytes and I concur with this recommendation. > > > > > Were that not the case, customer devices would be constantly > > > > > inconvenienced with excessive ICMP PTB messages reporting > > > degenerate > > > > > MTUs for crossing the ISP network. We also note that SEAL > > > uniquely > > > > > and correctly provides the tunnel 1500 MTU assurance that > > > > > incremental cgn is seeking, and moreover note that larger MTUs > > > > > (e.g., 9K) are robustly and naturally discovered when customer > > > > > devices request them. Please see also RANGER Scenarios > > > (RANGERS) for > > > > > additional insight into the application of VET and SEAL > > > into the ISP > > > > > network problem space: > > > > > > > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-russert-rangers > > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-autoconf-dhcp > > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-seal > > > > > > > > > > Fred > > > > > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com] > > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:44 PM > > > > >> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org > > > > >> Cc: guoseu@huawei.com; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > > > > >> Subject: FW:New Version Notification for > > > > > draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > > > >> Dear all, > > > > >> > > > > >> A revised version of draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn has been > > > > > submitted to > > > > >> v6ops WG. It had been represented by Brian Carpenter in v6ops > > > > >> meeting > > > > > in > > > > >> IETF 74 as draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 and received positive > > > > > comments > > > > >> also modification comments. We have integrated these > > > comments into > > > > > this > > > > >> version. > > > > >> > > > > >> Please review and comments on it. Many thanks. > > > > >> > > > > >> Best regards, > > > > >> > > > > >> Sheng > > > > >> > > > > >>> Filename: draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > > > >>> Version: 00 > > > > >>> Staging URL: > > > > >>> > > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn-00.txt > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Title: An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT > > > > >>> (CGN) for IPv6 Transition > > > > >>> Creation_date: 2009-05-08 > > > > >>> WG ID: Indvidual Submission > > > > >>> Number_of_pages: 11 > > > > >>> Abstract: > > > > >>> Global IPv6 deployment was slower than originally > > > expected in the > > > > >>> last ten years. As IPv4 address exhaustion gets closer, the > > > > >>> IPv4/IPv6 transition issues become more critical and > > > complicated. > > > > >>> Host-based transition mechanisms are not able to meet the > > > > >>> requirements while most end users are not sufficiently > > > expert to > > > > >>> configure or maintain these transition mechanisms. > > > Carrier Grade > > > > >>> NAT with integrated transition mechanisms can simplify the > > > > >>> operation of end users during the > > > > >>> IPv4/IPv6 migration or coexistence period. This > > > document proposes > > > > >>> an incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) solution for > > > > >>> IPv6 transition. > > > > >>> It can provide IPv6 access services for IPv6-enabled > > > end hosts and > > > > >>> IPv4 access services for IPv4 end hosts while remaining most of > > > > >>> legacy IPv4 ISP networks unchanged. It is suitable for > > > the initial > > > > >>> stage of IPv4/IPv6 migration. Unlike CGN alone, it also > > > supports > > > > >>> and encourages transition towards dual-stack or IPv6-only ISP > > > > >>> networks. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Submitter: Sheng Jiang (shengjiang@huawei.com) > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Author(s): > > > > >>> Sheng Jiang, shengjiang@huawei.com Dayong Guo, > > > guoseu@huawei.com > > > > >>> Brian Carpenter, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Comment: > > > > >>> Replacement for draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
- FW:New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops… Sheng Jiang
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Templin, Fred L
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Templin, Fred L
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Sheng Jiang
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Templin, Fred L
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Templin, Fred L
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Rémi Després
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Rémi Després
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Rémi Després
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Templin, Fred L
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Templin, Fred L
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Rémi Després
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Templin, Fred L
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Templin, Fred L
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Gert Doering
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Templin, Fred L
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Gert Doering
- Re: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-… JiangSheng 66104
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Mark Townsley
- Re: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-… Mohacsi Janos
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Seiichi Kawamura
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Rémi Després
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Mohacsi Janos
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… JiangSheng 66104
- Re: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-… JiangSheng 66104
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Rémi Després
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Mark Townsley
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Templin, Fred L
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Templin, Fred L
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Mohacsi Janos
- Re: RE: RE: New Version Notification for draft-ji… JiangSheng 66104
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Mohacsi Janos
- RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6op… Templin, Fred L
- RFC4890 question (was: RE: New Version Notificati… Templin, Fred L
- Re: RFC4890 question (was: RE: New Version Notifi… Mohacsi Janos
- draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Brian E Carpenter
- Re: draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Fred Baker
- RE: draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Templin, Fred L
- Re: draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Fred Baker
- RE: draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Templin, Fred L
- Re: draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Brian E Carpenter