Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-ra-unicast
Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> Wed, 22 July 2015 12:11 UTC
Return-Path: <lorenzo@google.com>
X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A0071A8AA7 for <v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 05:11:16 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.388
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SloJKixPsb_X for <v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 05:11:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-yk0-x229.google.com (mail-yk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A48821A0173 for <v6ops@ietf.org>; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 05:10:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by ykfw194 with SMTP id w194so110382351ykf.0 for <v6ops@ietf.org>; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 05:10:51 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=r1VLqlYImEAylunvIUz8RS4jgc+D5N6GrYm+oaBXhSs=; b=YK5+s7464Lq/LHgA+p0ODXGuFYe8/Wx5oPdZqF9y0x0tO/UzG/E3HLQ5aqxC7jOW3N YdUpD8YxUAiho1YD8z3pNSk/PqQLHvY+GfLJmQ9QQxqKck87IOAp9P9Wf4ejVlY+DePn 29dcMVVgRpMIsDaeFhF4yjl51ncxl33CNMYKfKXMB0ynn7Xpx0qglpHtvOBaXzIoMqTK 9xDEgVjSpOLeLfuQOvfAoLy/uz6v6qPfjagnNxnAspl28L2MzWoFOQ7rH3VQsGqaVXQV whaTMmhnlVkH23//0HsbePt18ja1ufSCvztOs0zWzfhb15TVqy/XQnuKjQtNdQZLvZPe GKAA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=r1VLqlYImEAylunvIUz8RS4jgc+D5N6GrYm+oaBXhSs=; b=Kd+5Eq8o+FQRbJGr8UcPD5wM07qibGiCkutqEG8pAtzcF+rpDFV4ezAr8r4gAS/wH+ LJLenclBunzpP1vwtmF4N50BiMOA5ozsRGD/tE6gLJ2MzsbC+XjA73uTlXKkXNWuTuzZ 0HBOZFjYpXPMFML/gq/fbK9wBP+uczwPlYqOjrIbewKiAIbz/J/W7Zfnt6DksO0hmrMw G249vMbxkA7GRVZ8Wv7FXQALH+FhB2097TaYjFlGx6WJhmZOFVJFN4gcAnLiqMPbHvTj uf8dvl3FwUAZNZ1yB+Tf3QjsZkE5Eid/4iDSiCMsXHEl7qoueYL6esQje0rA8kcmhDO0 y1qA==
X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQneHSuZy204njMkOsVTi3iubrolBe2J/3Vt3Ot4K4Pw3RcGAYzPzuIjWH97ycd+wpKYqeXe
X-Received: by 10.13.255.2 with SMTP id p2mr1937575ywf.149.1437567050985; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 05:10:50 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.37.8.201 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 05:10:31 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <55AF878E.1090200@gmail.com>
References: <201507071147.t67Bl13m009348@irp-lnx1.cisco.com> <CAO42Z2x7mNFbB_w_+W+80pY+LeCAKXaOBXMmQvkcaMSWhwW60g@mail.gmail.com> <EF21B630-5D0A-415A-A93F-9058900CC80C@cisco.com> <CAO42Z2zAqMXhBZ2wa=q0wtHGhMpMWU9TSjfFyd2quiki9w0oSw@mail.gmail.com> <85CADAA2-8DF2-4A6B-812B-7A77081936F5@cisco.com> <CAO42Z2w3fOxGJHasKqYZRfGZ2u=7FnZBm+jgLtgDvfZ7HYW=iw@mail.gmail.com> <CAO42Z2z+DwOin23HQTysrZ9dNP924+LQ-vOExmJc_xZUEB4yCQ@mail.gmail.com> <228248C6-94FE-4C9C-A875-F732EFDC6601@cisco.com> <55AD3B64.5070400@acm.org> <CAPi140P+kfpyQKzCRDA7bZQRowQx_YRcZYa85hHe64g4AvsVTg@mail.gmail.com> <C5901B99-F3A7-4DB0-8216-38D95EA89D6A@delong.com> <CAMugd_Xox_zYv6oftPdAZVZGz+FYZo+Dm-QRSSn4pMEj-x1XjA@mail.gmail.com> <55AF0964.1060006@gmail.com> <CAKD1Yr2y7e3bK8oYorCBPfdBAiyEkY5JJLaE+ixGczQdDjSPuw@mail.gmail.com> <55AF878E.1090200@gmail.com>
From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 14:10:31 +0200
Message-ID: <CAKD1Yr1xnKaYrFG4izZ4MbB1aRh89CGzTkc1ZjjryOgvdN0hQw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0888f66a9424051b75a97a"
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/SGBgBClsh0v4rT7GapTZ5s1L4qc>
Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-ra-unicast
X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: v6ops discussion list <v6ops.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/v6ops>, <mailto:v6ops-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/v6ops/>
List-Post: <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:v6ops-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops>, <mailto:v6ops-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 12:11:16 -0000
I'm told the problem affects iPhones as well. On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Alexandru Petrescu < alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > "Reducing battery impact of RAs on Androids"? > > Alex > > Le 22/07/2015 12:22, Lorenzo Colitti a écrit : > >> Thanks for all the feedback. We have posted a -01 addressing some of the >> feedback we got. The new version also contains a new recommendation not >> to send periodic RAs too frequently, so we have changed the title to >> "Reducing battery impact of Router Advertisements". >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-ra-unicast-01 >> >> If there are no objections, we will upload this as a WG document in the >> next few days. >> >> On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 5:09 AM, Alejandro Acosta >> <alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com <mailto:alejandroacostaalamo@gmail.com>> >> wrote: >> >> Hi There, >> I also support this document, it's very positive to see that this >> algorithm will save energy. >> >> Regards, >> >> Alejandro, >> >> El 7/21/2015 a las 6:11 PM, Nabil Benamar escribió: >> >>> Hi Folks, >>> >>> I support this document which is very informative, useful and its >>> implementation will certainly reduce energy consumption due to >>> excessive Multicast RA sent. The proposed algorithm seems to be >>> suitable for this end ! >>> >>> >>> Best regards >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 4:38 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com >>> <mailto:owen@delong.com>> wrote: >>> >>> It seems to me that the following algorithm would be >>> relatively easy to implement >>> and provide reasonable network optimization… >>> >>> >>> On receipt of an RS: >>> >>> if(multicast_ra_time_remaining > 15 seconds) >>> { >>> Send_Unicast_ra >>> } >>> else >>> { >>> Send_Multicast_ra >>> reset_multicast_timer >>> } >>> >>> In this way, if the timing is reasonably close, you multicast >>> a packet you were about to send >>> anyway, but if the timing isn’t close, you’re not wasting >>> multicast bandwidth answering a single >>> node where nobody else cares. >>> >>> Overall, I’ve always thought that multicast response to RS was >>> kind of silly. It’s probably most >>> harmful on WiFi. >>> >>> Owen >>> >>> > On Jul 21, 2015, at 02:33 , Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko >>> <ayourtch@gmail.com <mailto:ayourtch@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> > >>> > On 7/20/15, Erik Nordmark >>> <<mailto:nordmark@acm.org>nordmark@acm.org >>> >>> <mailto:nordmark@acm.org>> wrote: >>> >> On 7/17/15 9:34 AM, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: >>> >>>> So the next logical thing to do would be to have the >>> router default to >>> >>>> unicast Router Advertisements, measure the rate of >>> received Router >>> >>>> Solicitations, and switch to multicast RA mode past a >>> certain >>> >>>> threshold to cover this sort of situation. Once the >>> number of RSes >>> >>>> falls, it switches back to unicast RA mode. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> That would get rid of the configuration knob proposed in >>> this ID, and >>> >>>> is behaviour that I think could be universal for all link >>> types, >>> >>>> rather than just for the case of wireless ones with >>> mobile devices. >>> >>> If it were me implementing it, I think I would go about >>> this in a little >>> >>> different way, hopefully simpler. I would want to send at >>> most one (e.g., >>> >>> either zero or one) RA per some interval (a second?). In >>> the normal case, >>> >>> that is sent unicast. However, having sent a unicast RA at >>> time t, if I >>> >>> now receive another RS before t+1, I send the next one (at >>> time t+1) as a >>> >>> multicast. >>> >> >>> >> First of all I support this document as a WG document. >>> >> >>> >> But in terms of implementation, isn't it simpler to >>> always(*) respond to >>> >> a RS with a unicast RA? >>> > >>> > Yes. I did not respond on-list yet - but from operational >>> perspective >>> > "always send solRA unicast" / "always send solRA multicast" >>> definitely >>> > wins in my book, and I'd avoid premature optimizations (but >>> maybe we >>> > can say the implementers are explicitly free to do their own >>> > optimizations if they see fit) >>> > >>> > That said, will be very interesting to hear data from folks >>> who will >>> > run "all-unicast solRA", in real networks and then compare >>> the effect >>> > of their proposal optimizations on their real-world scenarios. >>> > >>> >> As background, the text in RFC4861 comes from the old >>> concern that all >>> >> devices might boot at the same time when the power is >>> re-established >>> >> after a building power failure; that doesn't happen since >>> most devices >>> >> (laptops, smartphones, IoT devices) have batteries today. >>> In that case >>> >> it might have made sense to sending fewer RA messages by >>> using multicast. >>> >> >>> >> (*) the only case in RFC 4861 when I think a multicast >>> response might be >>> >> considered is when the source IPv6 address in the RS is the >>> unspecified >>> >> address. Further, an implementation which rate limits >>> received RS >>> >> packets (e.g., CoPP in a router) might also want to detect >>> when the rate >>> >> limit might have dropped RS packets and multicast an RA in >>> that case. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> I do wonder why implementations haven't already changed to >>> send unicast >>> >> solicited RA, and whether it would make a difference if we >>> have an >>> > >>> > TBH that's my concern as well. I think we should tweak the >>> text in >>> > 4861 to encourage a bit more consideration on the >>> implementer's side. >>> > >>> >> informational document asking them to do this. >>> Alternatively we could >>> >> have a proposed standard which updates section 6.2.6 to >>> change the "MAY >>> >> unicast" to a "SHOULD unicast". >>> > >>> > Yeah, I actually have had the different text aimed for 6man, >>> but >>> > Lorenzo's concern was 6man would say "there is no protocol >>> update >>> > here, go away", so he rewrote it for v6ops. >>> > >>> > We should probably discuss this at the mic and get the >>> opinion of the >>> > 6man chairs - if there is no outright "no" on this, a >>> normative doc >>> > would be a better way to convince the implementers ? >>> > >>> >> >>> >> FWIW the draft incorrectly refers to section 6.2.4 instead >>> of 6.2.6. >>> > >>> > Nice catch, thanks! >>> > >>> > --a >>> > >>> >> >>> >> Thanks, >>> >> Erik >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> v6ops mailing list >>> >>> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> >>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> v6ops mailing list >>> >> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> >>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >> >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > v6ops mailing list >>> > v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> >>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> >> > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >
- [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-ra-un… fred
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Tore Anderson
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Fred Baker (fred)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Tarko Tikan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Hemant Singh (shemant)
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Nabil Benamar
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alejandro Acosta
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Jen Linkova
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Jared Mauch
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Nabil Benamar
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Gert Doering
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Owen DeLong
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Andrew 👽 Yourtchenko
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Ole Troan
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-yc-v6ops-solicited-r… Mark Smith