Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119
Karsten Walther <karsten.walther@perinet.io> Tue, 19 March 2024 00:26 UTC
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From: Karsten Walther <karsten.walther@perinet.io>
To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
CC: "brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com" <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, "superuser@gmail.com" <superuser@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119
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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2024 00:25:59 +0000
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119
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Dear v6ops, I like that there is a discussion running on the zone name, since this is a constant pain for us in the last years with our IoT devices (virtual ones aka containers as well as physical IoT devices. So my take on this: For me a zone name shall never be part of an URL, because it is an information, which is valid on a certain machine only, while an URL should be usable by any machine in a network. In my understanding it defines a location and not how a certain program can reach it. However, I can understand that a certain user may wants to select a local interface to use e.g. for troubleshooting, thus I would leave it to the application how to specify (command line option, UI setting) the interface to use. According the use in API programmin like restconf, I discourage the use of zone name, since such configuration is meant to be used somewhere in the network. Again in APIs no URLs which are valid only on a certain machine should be used. I think it is possible today start applications in virtual environments, which have the specific network interface as default interface. This would only require, that virtualization host don’t act as routers. To have a scoping namespace, which is unambigious across machines would require some sort of registry, which of course contradicts to the .local approach, which means “all next to me”. Regards Karsten Von: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> Datum: Dienstag, 19. März 2024 um 09:27 An: v6ops@ietf.org <v6ops@ietf.org> Cc: brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, superuser@gmail.com <superuser@gmail.com> Betreff: IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Dear v6ops You may want to think going to http(bis) WG this week for the slot on draft-schinazi-httpbis-link-local-uri-bcp. In it, he argues that rfc6874 should be retired/made-historic, because it was never implemented in browsers. For those who've been absent to the discussion: rfc6874 says URLs can represent IPv6 link-local addresses as [<ipv6addr>:<zone-name>] and David Drafts lays out why this is difficult for browsers rfc6874bis was held up (indefinitely) by Murray (ART AD) on the prmise that the browser vendors decided to not implement it rfc6874 nor bis. draft-carpenter-6man-zone-ui from Brian Carpenter was receiving various criticisms in 6MAN, leading to David to write his draft. Where he primarily promotes to use .local mDNS instead of IPv6 link local addresses My take on this: 1. The only poor souls who should ever have to use IPv6 link-local addresses in a browser field are IPv6 Network Opertors (aka: here, this group), when interacting in a browser with a router (e.g.:web interface off a browser) and entering URLs. Everybody else should use names (including .local), so it is certainly a minority use-case, but i would hope an important minority use-case. Without network admins being able to troubleshoot even if/where DNS is not working, we can not provide running IPv6 networks. 2. I find Murray's DISCUSS on rfc6874bis not convincing, because scoped IPv6 link-local addresses in URLs are not only needed for browsers, but for any type of API in programming languages that use URI, such as restconf or the like. Besides, i do not see why we as the IETF should constrict what we deem to be necessary by the implementation problems of effectively very few browser cores in the industry, neglecting the broader use of URLs. The argument alone that the IETF should not be able to demand what's needed for an IPv6 network archtiecture because some application land work is hard is just what has continued to slow down adoption of anything IPv6 for now 2 decades. 3. That being said, i would love to see Davids draft progress to help eliminate the non-working of .local addresses in Browsers today (aka: create standadrd/demand for mDNS in browsers to work), because they actually do have a good amount of actual really cool IoT use-cases (not v6ops). I just don't want the work to call for retiring rfc6874. I just want it for rfc6874 to become only necessary where no other option helps. Cheers Toerless
- [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Toerless Eckert
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Karsten Walther
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Ted Lemon
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 George Michaelson
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Erik Kline
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Lorenzo Colitti
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Toerless Eckert
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Toerless Eckert
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Toerless Eckert
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Toerless Eckert
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Toerless Eckert
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Murray S. Kucherawy
- Re: [v6ops] IPv6 link-local and URLs @ IETF119 Erik Kline