Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-xyzy-atick-gaps-00.txt
Saleem Bhatti <saleem@st-andrews.ac.uk> Wed, 30 May 2018 16:19 UTC
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From: Saleem Bhatti <saleem@st-andrews.ac.uk>
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
CC: Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya@ieee.org>, Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net>, 5GANGIP <5gangip@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-xyzy-atick-gaps-00.txt
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Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 16:19:20 +0000
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Subject: Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-xyzy-atick-gaps-00.txt
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Tom; > On 30 May 2018, at 16:44, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote: > > Behcet, > > The statement "For ILNP the basic deployment requires end-systems to > be updated." is unscoped. As written, this would imply that all hosts > on the Internet need to be updated to support ILNP. That is simply a > non-starter. Good catch - thanks. > If the idea is that ILNP can be deployed by networks then > hosts within that network can be updated. Only those end-systems that need to use ILNP need to be updated. ILNP nodes can work in networks with non-ILNP nodes - see Section 10.4 of RFC6741. > But, then the question > becomes how ILNP hosts are going to be able to talk non ILNP hosts > (say servers on the Internet). For that the an ILNP gateway or proxy > also must be deployed in the network. A gateway or proxy is not required. ILNPv6 can be seen as a superset of IPv6. ILNPv6 drops back to IPv6 when required - the process is described in Section 10.6 of RFC6741. Cheers, --/Saleem > > Tom > > On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 7:20 AM, Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> wrote: >> Luigi, Saleem, >> >> What is the agreement now as to the revision of the draft? >> >> I had already added some text regarding UE being alone on the link, i.e. >> point-to-point link in wireless networks, that should make both sides happy? >> >> Regards, >> Behcet >> >> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 7:25 AM, Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Saleem, >>> >>> On 29 May 2018, at 12:03, Saleem Bhatti <saleem@st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>> Hello Luigi; >>> >>> Thanks for your comments - my responses are inline, below. >>> >>> On 29 May 2018, at 09:32, Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> >>> On 28 May 2018, at 19:16, Saleem Bhatti <saleem@st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>> There is some text which is incorrect - on page 4: >>> >>> ---- >>> Furthermore, ILNP demands a change in the way local (e.g., within a >>> LAN) communication is carried out, needing all of the devices to >>> support ILNP. This in turn may raise heavy deployability issues. >>> ---- >>> >>> This is not true - "all devices" do *not* need to be updated, but only >>> those end-systems that wish to use ILNPv6. Switches >>> >>> >>> Switches clearly do not need to be changed since they are L2. >>> >>> >>> Agreed. >>> >>> However, the text clearly says "all of the devices", which is incorrect. >>> >>> >>> Agreed. >>> >>> >>> >>> and routers >>> >>> >>> You need to implement the ILCC in your first hop router. >>> >>> >>> No, that is not required. I have a testbed at St Andrews and we run Linux >>> routers that are not modified, and are not ILNP-aware. For example, please >>> see the testbed experiment described in this paper: >>> >>> IP without IP addresses >>> https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=3012695.3012701 >>> >>> >>> Thanks for the pointer. :-) >>> >>> >>> Then you need new ICMP messages, and few other tricks here and there in >>> existing stuff. >>> >>> >>> The new ICMP messages, e.g. Locator Updates for ILNPv6, RFC6743, are >>> end-to-end - only the end hosts needs to be updated to generate these >>> messages. >>> >>> If any on-path routers wish to examine such messages, then yes, they would >>> need to be updated, but that is not required for ILNPv6 to work. >>> >>> >>> Ack. >>> >>> >>> Other solutions are more clear because introduce new entities and >>> protocol, so either you have it or you don’t. >>> >>> >>> Yet, may be the last sentence can be soften deleting “heavy”. >>> >>> >>> All new solutions will incur some sort of deployment overhead, so I am not >>> sure why such a comment should apply specifically and only to ILNP. >>> >>> For ILNP the basic deployment requires end-systems to be updated. Such >>> updates would be deployed through over-the-air updates, as is common today >>> with many operating systems. DNS entries for ILNP nodes would also be >>> needed, and the new DNS RRs for ILNP (RFC6742) are supported commercially >>> (e.g. by BIND, NSD, and KnotDNS, and possibly others).. >>> >>> For other solutions, other deployment issues exist, e.g. for ILA and LISP, >>> new network entities/functions need to be deployed and managed for routing, >>> and so, I guess, the existing network will need to be reconfigured to >>> integrate the new functionality. I am guessing some operators may find that >>> a "heavy" deployment burden, but it is best that those operators comment on >>> whether or not they see that is a problem, as I have no experience with >>> running large networks. >>> >>> >>> Updating end-systems is IMHO a real nightmare. You have no control on who >>> will update and when. Network history is full of such examples. >>> Yes, ILA and LISP has to be deployed by operators, but they can have full >>> control of what will happen in their own network (which they usually like). >>> YMMV. >>> >>> In general, I may agree that deployment considerations for all of the >>> considered solutions can be improved and corrected. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> L. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> --/Saleem >>> >>> >>> Ciao >>> >>> L. >>> >>> >>> do not need to be updated, as ILNPv6 is backwards compatible with IPv6. It >>> is possible to run an ILNPv6 node in a LAN which also has non-ILNPv6 nodes. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> --/Saleem >>> >>> >>> On 25 May 2018, at 15:50, Behcet Sarikaya <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> We have submitted the gaps draft. Those who have contributed text are >>> listed as co-authors. >>> Please send your comments to the list. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Dirk& Behcet >>> >>> A new version of I-D, draft-xyzy-atick-gaps-00.txt >>> has been successfully submitted by Behcet Sarikaya and posted to the >>> IETF repository. >>> >>> Name: draft-xyzy-atick-gaps >>> Revision: 00 >>> Title: Gap and Solution Space Analysis for End to End Privacy >>> Enabled Mapping System >>> Document date: 2018-05-25 >>> Group: Individual Submission >>> Pages: 10 >>> URL: >>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-xyzy-atick-gaps-00.txt >>> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xyzy-atick-gaps/ >>> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xyzy-atick-gaps-00 >>> Htmlized: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-xyzy-atick-gaps >>> >>> >>> Abstract: >>> This document presents a gap and solution analysis for end-to-end >>> privacy enabled mapping systems. Each of the identifier locator >>> separation system has its own approach to mapping identifiers to the >>> locators. We analyse all these approaches and identify the gaps in >>> each of them and do a solution space analysis in an attempt to >>> identify a mapping system that can be end to end privacy enabled. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >>> submission >>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>> >>> The IETF Secretariat >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> 5gangip mailing list >>> 5gangip@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/5gangip >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> 5gangip mailing list >>> 5gangip@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/5gangip >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> 5gangip mailing list >>> 5gangip@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/5gangip >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> 5gangip mailing list >> 5gangip@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/5gangip >> > > _______________________________________________ > 5gangip mailing list > 5gangip@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/5gangip
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… FIGURELLE, TERRY F
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Luigi Iannone
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Luigi Iannone
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Luigi Iannone
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Saleem Bhatti
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Saleem Bhatti
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Saleem Bhatti
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Tom Herbert
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… FIGURELLE, TERRY F
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… FIGURELLE, TERRY F
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… FIGURELLE, TERRY F
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… FIGURELLE, TERRY F
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Rex Buddenberg
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… FIGURELLE, TERRY F
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Tom Herbert
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Saleem Bhatti
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Luigi Iannone
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Luigi Iannone
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Luigi Iannone
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Tom Herbert
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… FIGURELLE, TERRY F
- [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-xyzy… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Dirk.von-Hugo
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Saleem Bhatti
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Luigi Iannone
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Saleem Bhatti
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Luigi Iannone
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Saleem Bhatti
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Tom Herbert
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Saleem Bhatti
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Saleem Bhatti
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… David Allan I
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Saleem Bhatti
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Saleem Bhatti
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Tom Herbert
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Saleem Bhatti
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Tom Herbert
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Saleem Bhatti
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Dino Farinacci
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Tom Herbert
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Saleem Bhatti
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Saleem Bhatti
- Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-… Behcet Sarikaya