Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for draft-xyzy-atick-gaps-00.txt

[Tom Herbert <[e-mail]>]

On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Dino Farinacci <[e-mail]> wrote:
> The reason I sent the note was because there was a comparison between ILA and ILNP. So I threw LISP in for completeness.
>
ILA can run either in kernel or in userspace (over something like
VPP). In the case that ILA is run on an end host there are distinct
performance advantages being in the kernel since the whole data path
can be integrated.

Tom

> Dino
>
>> On May 30, 2018, at 2:51 PM, Behcet Sarikaya <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Dino,
>>
>> In this group we love all Id-Loc protocols, we strive for them to get better and hopefully one day that will pay off.
>>
>> Behcet
>>
>> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 2:38 PM, Dino Farinacci <[e-mail]> wrote:
>> And its irrelevant for LISP, because it can run in user-space.
>>
>> Dino
>>
>> > On May 30, 2018, at 12:08 PM, Saleem Bhatti <[e-mail]> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> On 30 May 2018, at 20:01, Tom Herbert <[e-mail]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 11:48 AM, Saleem Bhatti <[e-mail]> wrote:
>> >>> Behcet;
>> >>>
>> >>> On 30 May 2018, at 19:35, Behcet Sarikaya <[e-mail]> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 1:28 PM, David Allan I <[e-mail]>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The only network upgrade for ILNP is DNS support for RFC 6742, which is
>> >>>> believe is already deployed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I am not sure about deployed but maybe defined is better.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> If you are running the most recent version of BIND, KnotDNS, or NSD, then
>> >>> they support RFC6742 out-of-the-box, as far as I know.
>> >>>
>> >> The more relevant question would be which host OSes support ILNP.
>> >
>> > Currently, probably about the same number as the networks that support ILA ;-)
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > --/Saleem
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Tom
>> >>
>> >>> Cheers,
>> >>> --/Saleem
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> However, DNS is not privacy enabled which is our main issue here.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards,
>> >>> Behcet
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers
>> >>>> Dave
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: 5gangip <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Saleem Bhatti
>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 9:19 AM
>> >>>> To: Tom Herbert <[e-mail]>
>> >>>> Cc: Luigi Iannone <[e-mail]>; 5GANGIP <[e-mail]>; Behcet
>> >>>> Sarikaya <[e-mail]>
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [5gangip] New Version Notification for
>> >>>> draft-xyzy-atick-gaps-00.txt
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Tom;
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On 30 May 2018, at 16:44, Tom Herbert <[e-mail]> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Behcet,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The statement "For ILNP the basic deployment requires end-systems to
>> >>>>> be updated." is unscoped. As written, this would imply that all hosts
>> >>>>> on the Internet need to be updated to support ILNP. That is simply a
>> >>>>> non-starter.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Good catch - thanks.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> If the idea is that ILNP can be deployed by networks then hosts within
>> >>>>> that network can be updated.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Only those end-systems that need to use ILNP need to be updated. ILNP
>> >>>> nodes can work in networks with non-ILNP nodes - see Section 10.4 of
>> >>>> RFC6741.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> But, then the question
>> >>>>> becomes how ILNP hosts are going to be able to talk non ILNP hosts
>> >>>>> (say servers on the Internet). For that the an ILNP gateway or proxy
>> >>>>> also must be deployed in the network.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> A gateway or proxy is not required.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ILNPv6 can be seen as a superset of IPv6. ILNPv6 drops back to IPv6 when
>> >>>> required - the process is described in Section 10.6 of RFC6741.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> --/Saleem
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Tom
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 7:20 AM, Behcet Sarikaya
>> >>>>> <[e-mail]> wrote:
>> >>>>>> Luigi, Saleem,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> What is the agreement now as to the revision of the draft?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I had already added some text regarding UE being alone on the link,
>> >>>>>> i.e.
>> >>>>>> point-to-point link in wireless networks, that should make both sides
>> >>>>>> happy?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Regards,
>> >>>>>> Behcet
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 7:25 AM, Luigi Iannone <[e-mail]> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Hi Saleem,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On 29 May 2018, at 12:03, Saleem Bhatti <[e-mail]>
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Hello Luigi;
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Thanks for your comments - my responses are inline, below.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On 29 May 2018, at 09:32, Luigi Iannone <[e-mail]> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Hi,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On 28 May 2018, at 19:16, Saleem Bhatti <[e-mail]>
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> There is some text which is incorrect - on page 4:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> ----
>> >>>>>>> Furthermore, ILNP demands a change in the way local (e.g., within a
>> >>>>>>> LAN) communication is carried out, needing all of the devices to
>> >>>>>>> support ILNP.  This in turn may raise heavy deployability issues.
>> >>>>>>> ----
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> This is not true - "all devices" do *not* need to be updated, but
>> >>>>>>> only those end-systems that wish to use ILNPv6. Switches
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Switches clearly do not need to be changed since they are L2.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Agreed.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> However, the text clearly says "all of the devices", which is
>> >>>>>>> incorrect.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Agreed.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> and routers
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> You need to implement the ILCC in your first hop router.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> No, that is not required. I have a testbed at St Andrews and we run
>> >>>>>>> Linux routers that are not modified, and are not ILNP-aware. For
>> >>>>>>> example, please see the testbed experiment described in this paper:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> IP without IP addresses
>> >>>>>>> https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=3012695.3012701
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Thanks for the pointer. :-)
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Then you need new ICMP messages, and few other tricks here and there
>> >>>>>>> in existing stuff.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The new ICMP messages, e.g. Locator Updates for ILNPv6, RFC6743, are
>> >>>>>>> end-to-end - only the end hosts needs to be updated to generate
>> >>>>>>> these messages.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> If any on-path routers wish to examine such messages, then yes, they
>> >>>>>>> would need to be updated, but that is not required for ILNPv6 to work.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Ack.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Other solutions are more clear because introduce new entities and
>> >>>>>>> protocol, so either you have it or you don’t.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Yet, may be the last sentence can be soften deleting  “heavy”.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> All new solutions will incur some sort of deployment overhead, so I
>> >>>>>>> am not sure why such a comment should apply specifically and only to
>> >>>>>>> ILNP.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> For ILNP the basic deployment requires end-systems to be updated.
>> >>>>>>> Such updates would be deployed through over-the-air updates, as is
>> >>>>>>> common today with many operating systems. DNS entries for ILNP nodes
>> >>>>>>> would also be needed, and the new DNS RRs for ILNP (RFC6742) are
>> >>>>>>> supported commercially (e.g. by BIND, NSD, and KnotDNS, and possibly
>> >>>>>>> others)..
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> For other solutions, other deployment issues exist, e.g. for ILA and
>> >>>>>>> LISP, new network entities/functions need to be deployed and managed
>> >>>>>>> for routing, and so, I guess, the existing network will need to be
>> >>>>>>> reconfigured to integrate the new functionality. I am guessing some
>> >>>>>>> operators may find that a "heavy" deployment burden, but it is best
>> >>>>>>> that those operators comment on whether or not they see that is a
>> >>>>>>> problem, as I have no experience with running large networks.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Updating end-systems is IMHO a real nightmare. You have no control
>> >>>>>>> on who will update and when. Network history is full of such examples.
>> >>>>>>> Yes, ILA and LISP has to be deployed by operators, but they can have
>> >>>>>>> full control of what will happen in their own network (which they
>> >>>>>>> usually like).
>> >>>>>>> YMMV.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> In general, I may agree that deployment considerations for all of
>> >>>>>>> the considered solutions can be improved and corrected.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Thanks
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> L.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Cheers,
>> >>>>>>> --/Saleem
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Ciao
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> L.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> do not need to be updated, as ILNPv6 is backwards compatible with
>> >>>>>>> IPv6. It is possible to run an ILNPv6 node in a LAN which also has
>> >>>>>>> non-ILNPv6 nodes.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Cheers,
>> >>>>>>> --/Saleem
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On 25 May 2018, at 15:50, Behcet Sarikaya <[e-mail]>
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Hi all,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> We have submitted the gaps draft. Those who have contributed text
>> >>>>>>> are listed as co-authors.
>> >>>>>>> Please send your comments to the list.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Regards,
>> >>>>>>> Dirk& Behcet
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-xyzy-atick-gaps-00.txt has been
>> >>>>>>> successfully submitted by Behcet Sarikaya and posted to the IETF
>> >>>>>>> repository.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Name:           draft-xyzy-atick-gaps
>> >>>>>>> Revision:       00
>> >>>>>>> Title:          Gap and Solution Space Analysis for End to End Privacy
>> >>>>>>> Enabled Mapping System
>> >>>>>>> Document date:  2018-05-25
>> >>>>>>> Group:          Individual Submission
>> >>>>>>> Pages:          10
>> >>>>>>> URL:
>> >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-xyzy-atick-gaps-00.txt
>> >>>>>>> Status:
>> >>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xyzy-atick-gaps/
>> >>>>>>> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xyzy-atick-gaps-00
>> >>>>>>> Htmlized:
>> >>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-xyzy-atick-gaps
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Abstract:
>> >>>>>>> This document presents a gap and solution analysis for end-to-end
>> >>>>>>> privacy enabled mapping systems.  Each of the identifier locator
>> >>>>>>> separation system has its own approach to mapping identifiers to the
>> >>>>>>> locators.  We analyse all these approaches and identify the gaps in
>> >>>>>>> each of them and do a solution space analysis in an attempt to
>> >>>>>>> identify a mapping system that can be end to end privacy enabled.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>> >>>>>>> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at
>> >>>>>>> tools.ietf.org.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The IETF Secretariat
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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