Re: [6gip] IP Address Mobility Project

[Alexandre Petrescu <[e-mail]>]

Le 23/02/2023 à 16:14, David Lake a écrit :
[...]
>> Of course WhatsApp will work as you switch from 802.11 to LTE and 
>> back but just as the default bearer in LTE has no QoS, current 
>> 802.11 (other than WiFi6) has no concept of RF capabilities.
> 
> Will it work?  Is one sure?  I have strong doubts that my whatsapp
> phone call will not break if I turn off the WiFi access point and
> handover to a 4G network.
> 
> The discussion of glitches - is in addition to that first point.
> 
> If we agree that the whatsapp phone call breaks when moving from WiFi
> to 4G, then we can see about the glitches too.
> 
> By 'break' I mean 'hanged' (like when the person at the other end of
> the phone line has hanged the phone and I need to dial up again).
> 
> <DL> In telecoms terminology ‘cleared down.’ No – that does NOT
> happen. I regularly have WhatsApp sessions that move between 802.11
> and WiFi multiple times.

Clarification request: do you mean a move between 802.11 and WiFi?
These are approximately the same, and I wouldnt expect breakage there.

But a move between WiFi and LTE would be different - I would expect
breakage of ongoing audio calls there.

Alex


> Likewise I have calls on VoLTE that move between ePDG (VoWiFi) and
> cell (VoLTE) all the time without breaking (although not all
> operators support that feature.  </DL>
> 
> 
> 
> If we dont agree about that breakage, then the discussion about
> glitches is different.
> 
> Alex PS: I read the text below, I will see later.
> 
> 
>> 
>> And even with WiFi6, who determines which packets travel on the 
>> robust modulation items?  You’d just end up with everything being 
>> marked ‘high-priority’ and there would be much less bandwidth to 
>> share – self-defeating.
>> 
>> And be VERY careful what you mean by ‘break.’  This is down to the
>>  use case – if I’m accompanying a singer/soloist over an LTE
>> service (which I often do), then what is important for me is utter
>> stability – jitter, lost packets or changes of codec are an utter
>> nightmare because my brain is already very busy reading music,
>> playing the piano.  I really don’t have many more cycles left to
>> second-guess that lost note or slight change in tempo introduced by
>> a bit of packet buffering.  In that case, actually VoLTE is very,
>> very good.
>> 
>> But if I’m talking to someone where 30% of speech is silence and
>> the brain is excellent at in-filling words then the occasional
>> glitch on VoIP services such as WhatsApp is probably acceptable
>> (although for me, very annoying!) </DL>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> For VoLTE I cant do any of these immediately obvious steps.
>> 
>> But I can agree with you, based on trust, that probably VoLTE is a
>>  great performing tool.
>> 
>> <DL> It is and I think we would be churlish to think it is anything
>>  but. What I think we need in future 6G networks is a 
>> domain-independent way of extending the concept of SLAs that is 
>> implied by IMS across the whole of the Internet so that we offer 
>> differentiated services both for technical and commercial reasons.
>>  But we need to do that in an inter-operable and open manner, not
>> the closed-world of 3GPP, IMvHO. </DL>
>> 
>> 
>> Alex
>> 
>>> 
>>> David
>>> 
>>> Sent from Outlook for iOS 
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> 
>>> 
>> *From:* Alexandre Petrescu <[e-mail]>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 23, 2023 9:12:36 AM *To:* Sridhar 
>>> Bhaskaran <[e-mail]> *Cc:* Hesham ElBakoury 
>>> <[e-mail]>; Lake, David (PG/R - Comp Sci & Elec Eng)
>>>  <[e-mail]>; Giles Heron 
>>> <giles=[e-mail]>; Toerless Eckert 
>>> <[e-mail]>; [e-mail] <[e-mail]> *Subject:* Re: 
>>> [6gip] IP Address Mobility Project For the traffic class 
>>> mutability: the routers in an xGPP (3GPP) network are all under 
>>> the same authority. This means that that authority can easily 
>>> configure all intermediary routers to not touch on the traffic 
>>> class.
>>> 
>>> Alex
>>> 
>>> Le 23/02/2023 à 05:00, Sridhar Bhaskaran a écrit :
>>>>> Are there proposals to replace GTP?
>>>> 
>>>> <SB> See 3GPP TR 29.892 - 
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>>>> SRv6 was proposed and the outcome of the study is in this TR. 
>>>> After this IETF DMM worked on this draft independently - 
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> I can say that QoS can also be done with flow labels and 
>>>>> traffic
>>>>> 
>>>> classes
>>>>> in IPv6 headers, without GTP.
>>>> <SB> Flow labels and traffic classes can be changed by on path 
>>>> IP devices (routers etc). 3GPP endpoints require an unmodified 
>>>> flow identifier. That is why they keep the flow identifier in 
>>>> additional layer of encapsulation (i.e in GTP header). The flow
>>>>  identifier marked by the first 3GPP entrypoint gateway (UPF)
>>>> is kept all the way upto radio network in the downlink
>>>> direction so that, radio network can directly use that as index
>>>> to look up the resource allocation scheme / scheduler and RRM
>>>> details. For certain services like voice media (which is marked
>>>> by QOS flow identifier corresponding to QCI/5QI 1), mission
>>>> critical services (QFI --> 5QI --> 69) etc, strict SLAs are
>>>> there. Network cant afford to let on path routers meddle with
>>>> QoS flow markers.
>>>> 
>>>> Regards Sridhar On Thu, Feb 23, 2023 at 1:16 AM Alexandre 
>>>> Petrescu <[e-mail] 
>>>> <mailto:[e-mail]
>>>> 
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]
>> <mailto:[e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Le 22/02/2023 à 19:43, Hesham ElBakoury a écrit :
>>>> 
>>>> I can try to find that out.  I remember some relatively recent
>>>>  presentations at IETF about replacing GTP, or reducing the
>>>> number of headers.  It might have been in the (precursor?) of
>>>> the DMM WG. (distributed mobility mgmt).
>>>> 
>>>> A related question, IMHO, would be too whether there is an RFC
>>>>  for GTP in a first place...
>>>> 
>>>> I can remember an Internet Draft of year 2000 about GTP - named
>>>>  simply draft-casati-gtp - but it was not pursued at IETF.
>>>> 
>>>> If there were a GTP RFC, then we could think about improving
>>>> it, replacing it, etc.
>>>> 
>>>> When there is no GTP RFC, one can think about what should an 
>>>> ideal xGPP (3GPP) network use instead.
>>>> 
>>>> Or maybe another way...
>>>> 
>>>> Alex
>>>> 
>>>>> Hesham
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2023, 10:39 AM Alexandre Petrescu 
>>>>> <[e-mail]
>>>> <mailto:[e-mail] 
>>>> <mailto:[e-mail] 
>>>> <mailto:[e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>>>
>>>> <mailto:[e-mail] 
>>>> <mailto:[e-mail]
>>> <mailto:[e-mail]
>> <mailto:[e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> David, Giles,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Le 22/02/2023 à 14:35, David Lake a écrit :
>>>>>> This:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> “…the 5G UPF terminates the GTP tunnel but also does QoS,
>>>> charging,
>>>>>> lawful intercept etc. ”
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> … is a VERY important point.  GTP enables a number of very
>>>> low-level
>>>>>> RF features which MNOs need to control their allocation of
>>>> spectrum
>>>>>> and more importantly the numerology associated with an
>>>> application.
>>>>>> It is also used in shared solutions such a CoMP.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I can agree with the importance of the point above.  I can
>>>> agree about
>>>>> improvements there might be necessary.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I can say that QoS can also be done with flow labels and
>>>> traffic classes
>>>>> in IPv6 headers, without GTP.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> But I agree with the importance of the topic.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> If we are to replace GTP (and I think there is a reason to
>>>> do that)
>>>>>> we have to provide the interactions to the layer 1 that
>>>> MNOs need.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I agree.
>>>>> 
>>>>> [...] Giles said:
>>>>>> I’m not sure that your electricity analysis is correct.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Doing e.g. an MPLS exact match lookup across a FIB with a 
>>>>>> few thousand labels rather than an IPv6 longest-match
>>>>>> lookup
>>>> across a FIB
>>>>>> with a few million prefixes, for example, may well more
>>>> than offset
>>>>>> the extra electricity consumption caused by the extra 4
>>>> bytes of
>>>>>> header.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And then of course there’s all the electricity consumed by
>>>>>>  the control plane updates hitting the router CPUs.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I can agree.  But I do not take that as an invitation to 
>>>>> ignore electricity consumption.  Rather, all points you 
>>>>> mention
>>>> (exact match
>>>>> lookup consumption, ctl plane) should be measured and told
>>>> who consumes
>>>>> more, and then decide what to reduce.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I do not take your remark as giving up electricity savings
>>>>> in
>>>> front of
>>>>> too much complexity of understanding what's happening.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I do not take your remark as freedom to add more headers
>>>>> when
>>>> it becomes
>>>>> necessary to add more functionality.
>>>>> 
>>>>> [...]
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> More details about this performance degradation can be
>>>> provided if
>>>>>>> absolutely necessary, but some times trust might also
>>>> help for a
>>>>>>> quicker understanding towards realizing a common goal.
>>>>>>> (the development of trust is another matter that we can
>>>>>>> discuss separately :-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Trust takes time to earn, and I’d tend to suggest that
>>>> arguing that
>>>>>> it makes sense to inject a host route for a UE into OSPF
>>>> may not be
>>>>>> the best way to earn it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Given this apparent disparate understanding about routing -
>>>> you seem to
>>>>> be more people to be saying the contrary of what I say - I
>>>> give up this
>>>>> topic discussion on host based routes.  Maybe for later for
>>>> another G,
>>>>> maybe never.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Alex
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 6gip mailing list [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail] 
>>>>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]
>>>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>>> <mailto:[e-mail]
>>>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail] 
>>>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>>>>
>>>>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2F6gip&data=05%7C01%7Cd.lake%40surrey.ac.uk%7C825eb29a0c864fcccc9608db15ad111e%7C6b902693107440aa9e21d89446a2ebb5%7C0%7C1%7C638127605300967769%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DqO2uCGpsHp8D1%2BLafvpWi7s6ojoTJT8GeJMK4NlouY%3D&reserved=0
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 
> <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2F6gip&data=05%7C01%7Cd.lake%40surrey.ac.uk%7C825eb29a0c864fcccc9608db15ad111e%7C6b902693107440aa9e21d89446a2ebb5%7C0%7C1%7C638127605300967769%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DqO2uCGpsHp8D1%2BLafvpWi7s6ojoTJT8GeJMK4NlouY%3D&reserved=0
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>>>>>
> 
>>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>>> 
>> <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2F6gip&data=05%7C01%7Cd.lake%40surrey.ac.uk%7C825eb29a0c864fcccc9608db15ad111e%7C6b902693107440aa9e21d89446a2ebb5%7C0%7C1%7C638127605300967769%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DqO2uCGpsHp8D1%2BLafvpWi7s6ojoTJT8GeJMK4NlouY%3D&reserved=0
>>
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>>
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> <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2F6gip&data=05%7C01%7Cd.lake%40surrey.ac.uk%7C825eb29a0c864fcccc9608db15ad111e%7C6b902693107440aa9e21d89446a2ebb5%7C0%7C1%7C638127605300967769%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DqO2uCGpsHp8D1%2BLafvpWi7s6ojoTJT8GeJMK4NlouY%3D&reserved=0
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>>>>> <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2F6gip&data=05%7C01%7Cd.lake%40surrey.ac.uk%7C825eb29a0c864fcccc9608db15ad111e%7C6b902693107440aa9e21d89446a2ebb5%7C0%7C1%7C638127605300967769%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DqO2uCGpsHp8D1%2BLafvpWi7s6ojoTJT8GeJMK4NlouY%3D&reserved=0
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>> <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2F6gip&data=05%7C01%7Cd.lake%40surrey.ac.uk%7C825eb29a0c864fcccc9608db15ad111e%7C6b902693107440aa9e21d89446a2ebb5%7C0%7C1%7C638127605300967769%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DqO2uCGpsHp8D1%2BLafvpWi7s6ojoTJT8GeJMK4NlouY%3D&reserved=0
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> 
> <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2F6gip&data=05%7C01%7Cd.lake%40surrey.ac.uk%7C825eb29a0c864fcccc9608db15ad111e%7C6b902693107440aa9e21d89446a2ebb5%7C0%7C1%7C638127605300967769%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DqO2uCGpsHp8D1%2BLafvpWi7s6ojoTJT8GeJMK4NlouY%3D&reserved=0
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>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 6gip mailing list [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail] 
>>>> <mailto:[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]
>>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>>> 
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
> <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2F6gip&data=05%7C01%7Cd.lake%40surrey.ac.uk%7C825eb29a0c864fcccc9608db15ad111e%7C6b902693107440aa9e21d89446a2ebb5%7C0%7C1%7C638127605300967769%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DqO2uCGpsHp8D1%2BLafvpWi7s6ojoTJT8GeJMK4NlouY%3D&reserved=0
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>>>>
> 
>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>> <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2F6gip&data=05%7C01%7Cd.lake%40surrey.ac.uk%7C825eb29a0c864fcccc9608db15ad111e%7C6b902693107440aa9e21d89446a2ebb5%7C0%7C1%7C638127605300967769%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DqO2uCGpsHp8D1%2BLafvpWi7s6ojoTJT8GeJMK4NlouY%3D&reserved=0
>>
>>
>>
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> <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2F6gip&data=05%7C01%7Cd.lake%40surrey.ac.uk%7C825eb29a0c864fcccc9608db15ad111e%7C6b902693107440aa9e21d89446a2ebb5%7C0%7C1%7C638127605300967769%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DqO2uCGpsHp8D1%2BLafvpWi7s6ojoTJT8GeJMK4NlouY%3D&reserved=0
>
> 
<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2F6gip&data=05%7C01%7Cd.lake%40surrey.ac.uk%7C825eb29a0c864fcccc9608db15ad111e%7C6b902693107440aa9e21d89446a2ebb5%7C0%7C1%7C638127605300967769%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DqO2uCGpsHp8D1%2BLafvpWi7s6ojoTJT8GeJMK4NlouY%3D&reserved=0 
<https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2F6gip&data=05%7C01%7Cd.lake%40surrey.ac.uk%7C825eb29a0c864fcccc9608db15ad111e%7C6b902693107440aa9e21d89446a2ebb5%7C0%7C1%7C638127605300967769%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DqO2uCGpsHp8D1%2BLafvpWi7s6ojoTJT8GeJMK4NlouY%3D&reserved=0>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- o__ _>  /__ (_) \(_)... Burn fat not fuel - Bike along to a
>>>>  healthier life and cleaner world! :)
>>>> 
>>>> Sridhar Bhaskaran
>>>> 
>> 
>