Re: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for ARMD
<david.black@emc.com> Fri, 16 September 2011 13:12 UTC
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From: david.black@emc.com
To: armd@ietf.org
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 09:14:15 -0400
Thread-Topic: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for ARMD
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Subject: Re: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for ARMD
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And two more drafts on this topic: http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-mahalingam-dutt-dcops-vxlan-00.txt http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-sridharan-virtualization-nvgre-00.txt The edge switches could be the software switches in hypervisors. Thanks, --David > -----Original Message----- > From: armd-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:armd-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Warren Kumari > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 3:16 PM > To: Vishwas Manral > Cc: armd@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for ARMD > > > On Aug 11, 2011, at 11:40 PM, Vishwas Manral wrote: > > > Hi Linda/ Anoop, > > > > Here is the example of the design I was talking about, as defined by google. > > Just a clarification -- s/as defined by google/as described by someone who happens to work for google/ > > W > > > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-wkumari-dcops-l3-vmmobility-00.txt > > > > Thanks, > > Vishwas > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu> wrote: > > > > >>>> > > (though I think if there was a standard way to map Multicast MAC to Multicast IP, they could > probably use such a standard mechanisms). > > >>>> > > > > They can do that, but then this imposes requirements on the > > equipment to be able to do multicast forwarding, and even if does, > > because of pruning requirements the number of groups would be > > very large. The average data center switch probably won't handle > > that many groups. > > > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Anoop, > > > > From what I know they do not use Multicast GRE (I hear the extra 4 bytes in the GRE header is a > proprietery extension). > > > > I think a directory based mechanism is what is used (though I think if there was a standard way to > map Multicast MAC to Multicast IP, they could probably use such a standard mechanisms). > > > > Thanks, > > Vishwas > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Anoop Ghanwani <anoop@alumni.duke.edu> wrote: > > Hi Vishwas, > > > > How do they get multicast through the network in that case? > > Are they planning to use multicast GRE, or just use directory > > based lookups and not worry about multicast applications > > for now? > > > > Anoop > > > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Linda, > > > > The data packets can be tunnelled at the ToR over say a GRE packet and the core is a Layer-3 core > (except for the downstream ports). So we could have encapsulation/ decapsulation of L2 over GRE at the > ToR. > > > > The very same thing can be done at the hypervisor layer too, in which case the entire DC network > would look like a Layer-3 flat network including the ToR to server link and the hypervisor would do > the tunneling. > > > > I am not sure if you got the points above or not. I know cloud OS companies that provide the service > and have big announced customers. > > > > Thanks, > > Vishwas > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Linda Dunbar <dunbar.ll@gmail.com> wrote: > > Vishwas, > > > > In my mind the bullet 1) in the list refers to ToR switches downstream ports (facing servers) > running Layer 2 and ToR uplinks ports run IP Layer 3. > > > > Have you seen data center networks with ToR switches downstream ports (i.e. facing servers) enabling > IP routing, even though the physical links are Ethernet? > > If yes, we should definitely include it in the ARMD draft. > > > > Thanks, > > Linda > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Linda, > > I am unsure what you mean by this, but: > > * layer 3 all the way to TOR (Top of Rack switches), > > We can also have a heirarchical network, with the core totally Layer-3 (and having seperate > routing), from the hosts still in a large Layer-3 subnet. Another aspect could be to have a totally > Layer-3 network. > > > > The difference between them is the link between the servers and the ToR. > > > > Thanks, > > Vishwas > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Linda Dunbar <dunbar.ll@gmail.com> wrote: > > During the 81st IETF ARMD WG discussion, it was suggested that it is necessary to document typical > data center network designs so that address resolution scaling issues can be properly described. Many > data center operators have expressed that they can't openly reveal their detailed network designs. > Therefore, we only want to document anonymous designs without too much detail. During the journey of > establishing ARMD, we have come across the following typical data center network designs: > > * layer 3 all the way to TOR (Top of Rack switches), > > * large layer 2 with hundreds (or thousands) of ToRs being interconnected by Layer 2. This > design will have thousands of hosts under the L2/L3 boundary router (s) > > * CLOS design with thousands of switches. This design will have thousands of hosts under the > L2/L3 boundary router(s) > > We have heard that each of the designs above has its own problems. ARMD problem statements might > need to document DC problems under each typical design. > > Please send feedback to us (either to the armd email list or to the ARMD chair Benson & Linda) to > indicate if we have missed any typical Data Center network designs. > > > > Your contribution can greatly accelerate the progress of ARMD WG. > > > > Thank you very much. > > > > Linda & Benson > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > armd mailing list > armd@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/armd
- [armd] soliciting typical network designs for ARMD Linda Dunbar
- Re: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for… Vishwas Manral
- Re: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for… Linda Dunbar
- Re: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for… Vishwas Manral
- Re: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for… Vishwas Manral
- Re: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for… Anoop Ghanwani
- Re: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for… Anoop Ghanwani
- Re: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for… Vishwas Manral
- Re: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for… Warren Kumari
- Re: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for… Linda Dunbar
- Re: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for… david.black
- Re: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for… Murari Sridharan
- [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualization-n… Linda Dunbar
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Narasimhan Venkataramaiah
- Re: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for… Balus, Florin Stelian (Florin)
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Linda Dunbar
- Re: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Narasimhan Venkataramaiah
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Vishwas Manral
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Narasimhan Venkataramaiah
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Vishwas Manral
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Murari Sridharan
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Vishwas Manral
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Murari Sridharan
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Vishwas Manral
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Murari Sridharan
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Vishwas Manral
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Murari Sridharan
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Vishwas Manral
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Narasimhan Venkataramaiah
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Vishwas Manral
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Narasimhan Venkataramaiah
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Gary Berger
- Re: [armd] soliciting typical network designs for… Warren Kumari
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Linda Dunbar
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Narasimhan Venkataramaiah
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Benson Schliesser
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Narasimhan Venkataramaiah
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Gary Berger
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Vishwas Manral
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Linda Dunbar
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Michael Smith
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Vishwas Manral
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Gary Berger (gaberger)
- [armd] Multi-homing in data center Linda Dunbar
- Re: [armd] Multi-homing in data center Gary Berger
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… Michael Smith
- Re: [armd] how does "draft-sridharan-virtualizati… david.black