RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number
"Vladimir Ulybin" <Vladimir@audiocodes.com> Wed, 20 July 2005 09:50 UTC
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Subject: RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 12:50:57 +0300
Message-ID: <79B4F738DDD4EF4F85A4641A0FE5EFD60126ED58@aclmsg.corp.audiocodes.com>
Thread-Topic: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number
Thread-Index: AcWM/5BSBZvQV+2NTv61EoQySAKxDAADFSAA
From: Vladimir Ulybin <Vladimir@audiocodes.com>
To: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
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Cc: "Paul E. Jones" <paulej@packetizer.com>, Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>, avt@ietf.org
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Hi, You are right. The play out concept of RFC 2198 is problematic for fax relay. Because, T.38 gateways do not play the buffers, but transmit according to T.30 standard. Generally, the fax rates may be different at two sides of communication, for example, 2400bps at calling fax side and 14400bps at answer fax side. Also T.30 control signals may have no synchronization between gateways, but should be synchronized with near fax machine. The problem of timestamps is not only our (AudioCodes) problem but is general for different vendors. The packet buffer of a gateway receiving T.38 packets has no any time mapping. The sequence number is the only ID of T.38 packet. Combining sequence numbers with timestamps in packet recovery module is highly problematic for interoperability (and from my point of view is wrong for fax transfer). Unfortunately, typical gateways do not support a complex protocol RFC 2733. So, we cannot use it as a basic for our implementation. Thanks, Vladimir Ulybin -----Original Message----- From: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 10:49 AM To: Vladimir Ulybin Cc: Colin Perkins; Paul E. Jones; avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Hi, I think a lot of the problems you are having is based on the fact you are using RFC 2198 for something it wasn't designed for. It was designed and works as intended for audio payloads that relies on a single data block (ADU) per timestamp. The formats that fulfill this can for synchronization and detecting duplicates rely solely on timestamp. It uses the RTP timestamp primarily to detect when discontinuous transmissions occur. RFC 2198 doesn't have full sequence number recovery due to the fact that it wasn't needed for all the audio payloads one was considering to use. Also the solution RFC 2198 employs aren't suitable at all when the payloads become larger than half of the MTU. If you want sequence number recovery, less hassle with timestamps and so: Use RFC 2733 FEC resolves these issue. Or rather the updated version as RFC 2733 has some issues. Unfortunately we haven't finished this update yet, but we are getting close. Vladimir Ulybin wrote: > Let consider an option to update the "draft-jones-avt-audio-t38-05.txt" > or write a new draft for T.38 over RTP. This is an ITU defined RTP payload format. I agree that it has issues and some of them could have been avoided if ITU had involved AVT in the loop earlier when it was under proposal. However it is ITU that has change control of it. > > I think the problems opened in our discussions > - repetition of T.38 packets and If you are using RTP you have certain rules to follow. These involve the fact that packets can't be repeated using the same RTP sequence number. This requires solution like the RTP Retransmission format or the use of 2733 FEC. > - excessive complexity of T.38 over RTP caused by timestamps > (non-required by T.38) As Colin says RTP timestamps must be set in RTP. However one can make them simple to only indicate time of transmission. This would be simpler if people hadn't insisted on making it go over the same RTP session as audio. FAX isn't audio and it shouldn't be handled the same way as audio packets. Thus it should go in its own RTP session where it can be given somewhat different treatment. Yes, audio/t38 should in fact be image/t38 or possibly application/t38. Then as I said, stop using RFC 2198 and your timestamp issues mostly goes away. Cheers Magnus Westerlund Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVA/A ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 8 4048287 Torshamsgatan 23 | Fax +46 8 7575550 S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com _______________________________________________ Audio/Video Transport Working Group avt@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
- [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Vladimir Ulybin
- Re: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Colin Perkins
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Vladimir Ulybin
- Re: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Magnus Westerlund
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Vladimir Ulybin
- Re: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Colin Perkins
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Vladimir Ulybin
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Vladimir Ulybin
- Re: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Colin Perkins
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Paul E. Jones
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Vladimir Ulybin
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Vladimir Ulybin
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Paul E. Jones
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Vladimir Ulybin
- Re: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Colin Perkins
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Paul E. Jones
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Vladimir Ulybin
- Re: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Colin Perkins
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Oren Peleg
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Vladimir Ulybin
- Re: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Colin Perkins
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Vladimir Ulybin
- Re: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Magnus Westerlund
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Vladimir Ulybin
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Paul E. Jones
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Paul E. Jones
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Oren Peleg
- Re: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Colin Perkins
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Oren Peleg
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Vladimir Ulybin
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Vladimir Ulybin
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Paul E. Jones
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Vladimir Ulybin
- Re: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number lazzaro
- RE: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Vladimir Ulybin
- Re: [AVT] T.38 over RTP: RTP Sequence Number Magnus Westerlund