Re: [Coin] Semantic Routing : Abstract definition? Architectural formulation?

[Jon Crowcroft <[e-mail]>]

nicely put - so in some sense coin could contribute the programmable
_reduction_ in functionality that  a lot of systems want voluntarily
to incur...

On Wed, Mar 9, 2022 at 9:58 AM Toerless Eckert
<[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Jon, *:
>
> Obviously self-serving giving my draft-eckert-intarea-functional-addr-internets,
> but even without that i will claim that the past 30 years have shown that a
> single global end-to-end address space does not only have benefits. For
> all intent and purpose, rfc1981 might have provided more benefits than downsides,
> privacy addressing in IPv6 seems to be a proof point of that, like do solutions
> like MUD. How can we continue to claim that we want an unfethered end-to-end
> Internet model and that that is sufficient for everything, when nobody in their
> right might would connect anything critical directly to the Internet without
> a firewall. An element in the path for which i still have seen no good architectural
> document in the IETF.
>
> I think it would be architecturally prudent to acknowledge reality and recognize
> the Internet as a network not connecting only devices end-to-end but networks
> that do provide additionals functions for the devices behind them. And that
> these networks want to share as much as possible of the IETF TCP/IP protocol
> architecgture, but need more freedom in addressing, filtering, privacy and so on.
>
> Just saying..
>
> Cheers
>     Toerless
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 09, 2022 at 08:23:49AM +0000, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
> > interesting stuff - most these sorts of scehemes run into trouble (as does  the whole history
> > of cidr/longest prefix stuff & aggregation) when you have multihoming...
> >
> > by the way, i recall charigin the BOF on IPng requirements (20+ years ago) and we very
> > specifically considered most the same questions (certainly, very large numbers of small
> > footprint devices was absolutely on topic then - folks at boeing had come in with some
> > interesting estimates which raised eyebrows a bit, but are looking pretty solid 2 decades
> > later)  - was captured in
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ipng-recommendation-00
> >
> > I'm not sure much has changed :-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Here they are Adrian
> > >  1.     Nirmala Shenoy, Shreyas, Peter Willis, 'A Structured Approach to
> > > Routing in the Internet' workshop on Semantic Routing and Addressing for
> > > Future Networks, SARNET 21 in the International Conference on High
> > > Performance Routing and Switching. 2021, 7-10 June Paris, France.
> > >
> > > 2. Nirmala Shenoy, Peter Willis, "Expedited Internet Bypass Protocol",
> > > Invited Talk, NIPAA, New Internet Protocols Architectures and Algorithms,
> > > 28th IEEE International Conference on Network Protocols, Oct 13-16 2020.
> > >
> > > 3. Nirmala Shenoy, "An Expedited Internet Bypass Protocol - Improving
> > > Internet Performance", Invited Talk, FIPE Future Internet Protocol
> > > Evolution, IETF 109 side meeting, IRTF Research Group. 18th Nov. 2020
> > >
> > > I have also included an invited talk presentation at FIPE.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Nirmala
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Coin <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 12:25 PM
> > > To: Nirmala Shenoy <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
> > > Cc: 'Carsten Bormann' <[e-mail]>; 'Bernier, Daniel'
> > > <[e-mail]>; 'Dirk Kutscher' <[e-mail]>;
> > > [e-mail]
> > > Subject: Re: [Coin] Semantic Routing : Abstract definition? Architectural
> > > formulation?
> > >
> > > Thanks Nirmala,
> > >
> > > Do you have pointers to your SARNET and NIPAA publications?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Adrian
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Nirmala Shenoy <[e-mail]>
> > > Sent: 08 March 2022 14:53
> > > To: [e-mail]; [e-mail]
> > > Cc: 'Carsten Bormann' <[e-mail]>; 'Bernier, Daniel'
> > > <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]; 'Dirk Kutscher'
> > > <[e-mail]>
> > > Subject: RE: [Coin] Semantic Routing : Abstract definition? Architectural
> > > formulation?
> > >
> > > Hello all
> > > See my comments below initialed NS on Carston's suggestions. I would like
> > > to investigate our solution options further based on the suggestions by
> > > Jon Crowfort, Carston nad Dirk Kutscher - but would appreciate any
> > > direction on how to proceed.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >  Nirmala
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Coin <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 3, 2022 5:28 PM
> > > To: [e-mail]
> > > Cc: 'Carsten Bormann' <[e-mail]>; 'Bernier, Daniel'
> > > <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]; 'Dirk Kutscher'
> > > <[e-mail]>
> > > Subject: [Coin] Semantic Routing : Abstract definition? Architectural
> > > formulation?
> > >
> > > Hi again,
> > >
> > > Picking up the third thread arising from questions at the interim.
> > >
> > > Joerg Ott asked about the "picture" I had in mind. I think he was
> > > objecting to the fragmented and somewhat abstract view that was coming
> > > across, and wanted a step-back big picture. Dirk Trossen jumped in to
> > > voice his agreement with what Jon Crowcroft had said on the list that,
> > > "There needs to be some 'vision', architecture and abstractions." My
> > > comment at the time was that this needs to be supplemented with some
> > > concrete formulations of the problems that are being addressed.
> > >
> > > All I can say to this is, "Yes."
> > >
> > > We've started work on this, and (as you might imagine) it is a largish
> > > piece of work. That is, it is not a lot of pages, but it is quite an
> > > effort to get the taxonomy and ontology tight and precise. We think this
> > > will probably turn into a paper.
> > >
> > > I hope that it may lead on to something more concrete. As Carsten Bormann
> > > put in the interim, "If we can come up with a labeling system that allows
> > > different parts of the overall system to evolve independently, and that
> > > provides a reasonable level of incentives to produce/make use of such
> > > information, we win."
> > >
> > > NS: This seems to align with some of the features of Expedited Internet
> > > Bypass Protocol (EIBP) discussed in some detail in
> > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-jia-intarea-internet-addressing-gap-an
> > > alysis-02.html and more details in the SARNET 21 and NIPAA 2020 (invited
> > > talk) publications. EIBP  proposes a modular solution to assign addresses
> > > to routers using  physical/virtual structures in networks, thus avoiding
> > > the need for routing protocols. This would simplify router operations and
> > > speed up packet forwarding significantly.
> > > EIBP allows limited domains to use their own addressing scheme suited to
> > > their network constraints etc. Thus limited domains and  addresses in the
> > > limited domain can evolve independently.
> > >
> > >
> > > Dirk Kutscher framed this with a warning, "The problem is that there is a
> > > matrix of desirable functionality and different conceivable technical
> > > means (e.g., app-layer overlays, SFC, NFV, IP layer QoS++, programmable
> > > forwarding  semantics). You need a[n] architectural formulation to
> > > explain why a particular subset is the right one." And Joerg Ott
> > > qualified this as, "...for a given problem space."
> > >
> > > Daniel Bernier took this a step further to ask about the "contractual
> > > notion" whereby knowledge of the capabilities of the forwarding entity
> > > must be known. This is the classic question that we have seen in various
> > > proposals and proto-solutions where, on the one hand the network tells
> > > the application what it can do, and on the other hand, the application
> > > tells the network what it wants done. Possibly the solution lies with a
> > > "broker" in the middle handling the application's declarative requests
> > > and mapping them according to what the network has said it can provide
> > > before actually instructing the network elements. As Nik Sultana then
> > > pointed out, this also has implications for information shared between
> > > routing domains.
> > >
> > > I think all of this nicely sets the broad challenge of understanding what
> > > semantic routing could offer and what problems it could encounter. And,
> > > as I said at the time, it would be good if we could see something that
> > > could span multiple problem spaces because generic versus specific is
> > > always an interesting trade.
> > >
> > > So, as we work on the abstraction, we are happy to have collaborators.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Adrian
> > >
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