Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled Application Data Enroute (decade)
"Y. Richard Yang" <yry@cs.yale.edu> Mon, 24 September 2012 15:20 UTC
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Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 11:19:43 -0400
From: "Y. Richard Yang" <yry@cs.yale.edu>
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To: Martin Stiemerling <martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu>
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Cc: decade@ietf.org, Konstantinos Pentikousis <k.pentikousis@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled Application Data Enroute (decade)
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On 9/24/12 8:14 AM, Martin Stiemerling wrote: > Akbar, > > On 09/22/2012 01:52 AM, Rahman, Akbar wrote: >> Hi Martin, >> >> >> Regarding your point below. Unfortunately, I think that you are >> factually wrong. Otherwise prove me wrong by showing me where on the >> I-D State Diagram >> http://datatracker.ietf.org/images/state_diagram.png it specifies >> that sending an I-D back to the authors with comments equals shutting >> down the WG and stopping a WG approved I-D. > > You are referring the state diagram for Internet drafts and this state > diagram does have no relationship to what happens with a WG. > > However, for termination of WGs, please refer to RFC 2418, Section 4, > copied here for your convenience: > > 4. Working Group Termination > > > Working groups are typically chartered to accomplish a specific task > or tasks. After the tasks are complete, the group will be disbanded. > However, if a WG produces a Proposed or Draft Standard, the WG will > frequently become dormant rather than disband (i.e., the WG will no > longer conduct formal activities, but the mailing list will remain > available to review the work as it moves to Draft Standard and > Standard status.) > > If, at some point, it becomes evident that a working group is unable > to complete the work outlined in the charter, or if the assumptions > which that work was based have been modified in discussion or by > experience, the Area Director, in consultation with the working group I am wondering this large number of emails in the last few days is the "consultation with the working group" part or not. Richard > > can either: > > 1. Recharter to refocus its tasks, > 2. Choose new Chair(s), or > 3. Disband. > > If the working group disagrees with the Area Director's choice, it > may appeal to the IESG (see section 3.4). > > > and cite the email announcing the termination of the DECADE WG > "The DECADE WG has reached the point where it is evident that the > chartered work cannot be completed at a technical level suitable for the > coming steps of the protocol definition and also within an appropriate > time frame." > > The drafts do not show that the WG is completing its technical work. > > Martin > >> >> >> >> -- snip -- >> >>> - As an author, I do NOT feel that I was part of any extensive >>> discussions regarding potential shutting down of the DECADE WG and >>> especially stopping the current active WG drafts (especially the >>> Architecture I-D where I was an author). >> >> Talk to your chairs and consider that the requirements went from >> publication requested (i.e., on the way to the IESG) back to the WG >> (i.e., not on the way to the IESG). >> >> The same is true for the architecture draft. >> >> >> -- snip -- >> >> >> BR >> >> /Akbar >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Martin Stiemerling [mailto:martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu] >> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 10:09 AM >> To: Rahman, Akbar >> Cc: Konstantinos Pentikousis; decade@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled Application >> Data Enroute (decade) >> >> Hi Akbar, >> >> On 09/21/2012 03:21 PM, Rahman, Akbar wrote: >>> To All, >>> >>> >>> >>> I also want to make some points for the record: >>> >>> - As an author, I do NOT feel that I was part of any extensive >>> discussions regarding potential shutting down of the DECADE WG and >>> especially stopping the current active WG drafts (especially the >>> Architecture I-D where I was an author). >> >> Talk to your chairs and consider that the requirements went from >> publication requested (i.e., on the way to the IESG) back to the WG >> (i.e., not on the way to the IESG). >> >> The same is true for the architecture draft. >> >>> >>> - We did have one lunch meeting in Vancouver with Martin and the >>> chairs but that was publicly announced and open to all in the WG. >>> At that meeting, I recall Martin asking the attendees if there was >>> industry interest for the DECADE work. From what I recall, everyone >>> there did express various levels of interest and support. I didn’t >>> hear anyone say that DECADE was a "wasted effort". So, frankly I was >>> surprised and disappointed to see the WG shut down so suddenly. If >>> there really is no community support to continue with the activity, >>> then so be it. But you cannot conclude that there is not interest >>> without first having an open discussion. >> >> To be honestly, but expressing interest and transforming interest to >> technical progress are two very distinct actions. >> >> I have seen a lot of 'expressing interest', but the technical progress >> was and is just not there. >> >> I also told at the lunch meeting in Vancouver that I want to see actions >> on the two main drafts in the WG, i.e., the requirements and the >> architecture. Yes there has been action, but the technical quality of >> the drafts is far from being useful for any further protocol >> development. >> See also my email with 2 examples on issues not addressed in neither the >> requirements nor the architecture draft. >> >>> >>> - In terms of the document quality. The first draft of the >>> Architecture I-D was in March 2011. Since then we have gotten >>> extensive comments from various excellent reviewers. But as is >>> often the case when you have multiple reviewers, you sometimes get >>> conflicting directions. Some reviewers wanted a high level abstract >>> architecture that avoided all "implementation" details. Other >>> reviewers wanted a more detailed approach that got more into the >>> details of the protocols and inner workings of the nodes. I >>> personally tried in a good faith effort to address all the comments >>> and to try to strike a balance in addressing the philosophies of the >>> different reviewers. >> >> The architecture drafts clearly fails to show the architecture of the >> DECADE protocols. See my AD review. >> >> You have indeed received extensive reviews, but it is up to date not >> clear if and how they were addressed. >> >> You can see also this, as the draft talks about the DECADE system which >> is not equal to the protocols. >> >>> >>> - I agree with Kostas that many documents in other WGs go through >>> similar issues but at the end still managed to produce good work. >> >> Yes and no. There are examples in both directions, so it doesn't help >> here in this particular case. >> >>> >>> - To conclude, I devoted in good faith a fair amount of my energy to >>> participate in advancing the topics in the WG since the first >>> session back in Anaheim. I defer to the higher powers to make the >>> decision on closing the DECADE WG or not. However, I clearly want to >>> state that I think it was unfortunate to also suddenly terminate the >>> DECADE Architecture I-D which was being extensively revised whenever >>> we got reviewer comments. I understand if people are saying that >>> more work has to be done to get it to publication state. But that >>> does not warrant, in my opinion, to just shut down the work. >>> Honestly, if you use that criteria there would be many WG documents >>> in other groups that should also be abruptly shut down. >> >> I wonder why there is so much care about other groups? This is about >> DECADE not any other arbitrary group somewhere else. >> >> With respect to the energy: >> If people still believe in DECADE, take the documents, address the >> reviews, get reviews and go for the Independent Stream submission with >> the RFC editor. >> >> Regards, >> >> Martin >> >>> >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> >>> >>> Akbar >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: decade-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:decade-bounces@ietf.org] On >>> Behalf Of Konstantinos Pentikousis >>> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 8:15 AM >>> To: Martin Stiemerling; decade@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled Application >>> Data Enroute (decade) >>> >>> Dear Martin, All, >>> >>> |The DECADE working group has just been closed by your >>> responsible Area >>> |Director. >>> | >>> |This may come as a surprise to some in the WG >>> >>> Indeed, it has been a surprise. >>> >>> | but it should not be a surprise for the working drafts authors >>> >>> That's fine, but I think some sort of announcement (and even better >>> a discussion) should have been circulated prior to the IESG >>> announcement. I'm not interested into _who_ should have done this. >>> It's too late and, in the end, irrelevant at this stage. But there's >>> an order of magnitude more people on this mailing list than in the >>> author line of all drafts together. I would consider this a >>> breakdown in communication between the inner- and outer-circle. This >>> was far from what, in general, I would call a "graceful teardown". >>> >>> | Both drafts do leave any number of key questions unanswered >>> >>> I do agree with most of your technical comments. I sent reviews on >>> both documents earlier. That said, imo, this action was a bit >>> abrupt. I do recall a few groups that were much later in their >>> timelines than decade is now, and they still managed to do decent >>> work after a (prolonged) slow start. >>> >>> In any case, I respect your decision, but I do not second it. >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> >>> Kostas >>> >>> >> >
- [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled Appli… IESG Secretary
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Konstantinos Pentikousis
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Rahman, Akbar
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Konstantinos Pentikousis
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Y. Richard Yang
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Konstantinos Pentikousis
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Rahman, Akbar
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Rahman, Akbar
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Y. Richard Yang
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Rahman, Akbar
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Songhaibin
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Songhaibin
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Rahman, Akbar
- [decade] 答复: WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Guyingjie (Yingjie)
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [decade] 答复: WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupl… Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Rahman, Akbar
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Y. Richard Yang
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Y. Richard Yang
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Y. Richard Yang
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Y. Richard Yang
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Y. Richard Yang
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [decade] WG Action: Conclusion of Decoupled A… Y. Richard Yang