Re: [decade] DECADE WG to be closed
Peng Zhang <pzhang.thu@gmail.com> Sat, 22 September 2012 17:49 UTC
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From: Peng Zhang <pzhang.thu@gmail.com>
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Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 01:49:10 +0800
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To: Martin Stiemerling <martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu>
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Subject: Re: [decade] DECADE WG to be closed
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Dear Martin, I tend to agree with you on some points, but can hardly agree on all. For example I cannot agree with your points that. >> The was no and still has not been an adequate response from the DECADE >> WG to these reviews. For instance, the requirements did get a lot of >> feedback from Dave Crocker, but this feedback was never addressed in an >> email. As far as I know, Richard has called for participation on addressing these feedbacks, and gave some valuable points (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/decade/current/msg00694.html). As a participant, I tried to address these issues in my later emails. For example, I gave some suggestions on how to organize the -req and -arch documents (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/decade/current/msg00697.html). Also, Stephen and me had a lot of discussions on the issue of object naming in -req and -arch documents (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/decade/current/msg00705.html). We even cc'ed our discussions to the ppsp wg for comments, and received comments from Arno (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/decade/current/msg00741.html). Given this, I don't know why you would arrive at the conclusions that "this feedback was never addressed in an email". BR, Peng. On Sep 22, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Songhaibin wrote: > Dear Martin, > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Martin Stiemerling [mailto:martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu] >> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 4:36 PM >> To: Songhaibin >> Cc: Richard Woundy >> Subject: Re: DECADE WG to be closed >> >> Dear Haibin, >> >> On 09/17/2012 11:39 AM, Songhaibin wrote: >>> Dear Martin, >>> >>> Hope everything goes well with you and thank you very much for your efforts >> to reviewing the drafts in detail and giving guidance. >>> >>> As I agree with most of your comments to the DECADE requirements draft, but >> I have to say IMO the architecture document is not that bad. This document gives >> a clear description of the DECADE server/client components and >> implementation/design principals which will be reflected in the protocols, IMO >> this is what an architecture document should do. >>> >>> I do not agree there is lack of technical substances to design a base protocol >> which can satisfy the transport and resource control requirements for content >> distribution applications. Some detailed design choices are still not very clear, and >> need efforts for them. >>> >>> And recently, the energy is growing, we recently received a lot of list discussion >> including comments from Kostas about the requirements and architecture and >> also a new individual draft for the service discovery was submitted. >> >> The energy has indeed grown in the WG since before the summer. But, I >> indicated in my email from mid of June that I have doubts on the >> technical quality of the DECADE drafts. These doubts have turned into >> certainty, i.e., see the my AD reviews of the requirements and the >> architecture. >> >> The technical quality of the drafts would be ok, if the WG would be at >> the beginning of the process of discussing and writing those drafts, but >> it is not acceptable at the end when the drafts are intended to become RFCs: >> The technical base is just to weak to continue from, even after spending >> time and effort of the WG participants for more than 2 years. > > The requirements document was accepted on Oct. 18, 2010, and the architecture draft was accepted on March 7, 2011. > >> >> Another important data point, as mentioned earlier: >> There has been public feedback from IETF community members, such as Dave >> Crocker and Carsten Bormann, which questioned the technical base of >> DECADE as a whole. This happened at the end of the 2011 and in the first >> quarter of 2012. > >> The was no and still has not been an adequate response from the DECADE >> WG to these reviews. For instance, the requirements did get a lot of >> feedback from Dave Crocker, but this feedback was never addressed in an >> email. I also have been unable to sort out what parts of the feedback >> has been addressed in the updated draft and how, and what parts have not >> been addressed. > > I believe all those comments were addressed in the current draft, as I joined the discussion with the authors to address the comments. Their efforts should be respected. The authors and I would like Dave and Carsten to check the draft with their comments, if they are interested. While I admit answering in the mailing list is a main method to resolve comments, but it is not the only method. > >> >> I have also received much stronger feedback about the DECADE WG in >> private emails to me. Again from long standing IETF community members >> that send me feedback arguing that DECADE is not having a technical base >> to build on top of. > > OK. But general rule for IETF is rough consensus, not private emails. Why not discuss their questions in the list? > >> >> You have asked in your other email to give more time to the WG until the >> next IETF meeting in November. This would be one possible way forward, >> but I do know about the past 6 months after the IETF meeting in Paris. >> Not a lot has happened during this period in order to improve the WG >> drafts, in the sense that there is a solid technical base where DECADE >> could continue to work from. > > I can answer If your question about the technical base can be more specific. > >> >> Even if you and the whole WG would start to work full-time on the >> drafts, it still would take longer than to the next IETF meeting to move >> the requirements and architecture forward. My gut guessing is that it >> will take at least until March 2013. > >> To give an example: >> It is completely unclear how the resources on a DECADE server are >> supposed to be managed and how this management is mapped to the protocol >> split of SDT, DRP, and other management protocols. >> Parts of it, such as setting the permissions of data objects clearly >> belongs to the DRP, and it is sort of stated in a vague way in the >> architecture, but it is not documented in a comprehensive way. Other >> parts, such as the accounting is probably not part of the the DRP nor >> SDT, but there is supposedly another interface that is needed for this. >> >> Has this been discussed at any point in the WG? > > I just read the email that Richard answered these questions with text from the current drafts. And I agree with his answers. > > While I respect that AD can make the decision of closing a WG, but I see a dozen of emails expressed their disappointment. > > BR, > -Haibin > > >> Given the above points and my summaries out of the last email and the >> one of 6/12, the DECADE WG is going to be closed by today. >> >> The DECADE WG mailing list will remain open until the end of the year, >> to let the people a chance to discuss how to go forward with the drafts. >> >> As suggest in my earlier email: >> The participants are free to overhaul the drafts and to submit them as >> individual submissions to the RFC Editor's Independent Stream. >> >> >> The decisions to close the WG can be of course appealed via the IETF >> appeal process: >> See 'Appeals and PR-Actions' under http://www.ietf.org/iesg/ and RFC 2026. >> >> Martin >> >>> >>> BR, >>> -Haibin >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Martin Stiemerling [mailto:martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu] >>>> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 7:53 PM >>>> To: Songhaibin; Richard Woundy >>>> Subject: DECADE WG to be closed >>>> >>>> Dear Rich and Haibin, >>>> >>>> I have finally done my AD review for the DECADE architecture draft after >>>> finishing the DECADE requirements draft. >>>> >>>> The first feedback for the DECADE architecture draft has been provided >>>> in the datatracker and sent to the authors and you by email. >>>> >>>> Both drafts are in an extremely bad shape, i.e., they would require a >>>> major overhaul and have been sent back to the working group due to lack >>>> of technical quality. >>>> >>>> I have already expressed my concerns about the energy and the lack of >>>> technical confidence in the group in my summary email of 6/12. The >>>> requirements and architecture drafts got advanced towards the IESG >>>> afterwards. The push for energy was good. >>>> >>>> However, after reviewing the two key drafts, requirements and >>>> architecture, and receiving feedback from IETF community members, I have >>>> come to the conclusion that the DECADE working group lacks a sound >>>> technical ground. >>>> >>>> The DECADE group started its work in end of April 2010 and is now >>>> working for more than 2 years on the milestones/drafts. The time isn't a >>>> big deal, but after 2 years I would have expected that the documents are >>>> on a good technical level where the WG can build on top of. >>>> >>>> The issues for the potential future protocol works is that if the basics >>>> are not well understood and documented, how can the protocols be >>>> designed in a comprehensive and technical sound way? >>>> I cannot see this anymore. >>>> This was also documented in my email on 6/12: >>>> " >>>> I have seen reviews for the ps, the reqs, and the architecture drafts >>>> which go all in the same direction: where is the technical substance, >>>> DECADE will built on? >>>> >>>> The last meeting in Paris was really discouraging with respect to the >>>> technical substance... >>>> Yet another sign of lack of energy in the WG... >>>> " >>>> >>>> The WG did get a grace period starting after the IETF meeting in Paris >>>> and had the chance to really show that it is moving in the right >>>> direction. However, the current state does still not document this and >>>> therefore the DECADE WG will be closed in the next week. I will inform >>>> the WG on Tuesday afternoon CEST. >>>> >>>> The draft authors of the requirements, architecture, and also the >>>> Integration Examples of DECADE System can submit the respective drafts >>>> via the Independent Stream of the RFC editor (see >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6548 for further information), if they >>>> wish to. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> -- >>>> IETF Transport Area Director >>>> >>>> martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu >>>> >>>> NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited >>>> Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL >>>> Registered in England 283 >> >> -- >> martin.stiemerling@neclab.eu >> >> NEC Laboratories Europe - Network Research Division NEC Europe Limited >> Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL >> Registered in England 283
- Re: [decade] DECADE WG to be closed Songhaibin
- Re: [decade] DECADE WG to be closed Peng Zhang
- Re: [decade] DECADE WG to be closed Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [decade] DECADE WG to be closed Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [decade] DECADE WG to be closed Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [decade] DECADE WG to be closed Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [decade] DECADE WG to be closed Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [decade] DECADE WG to be closed S Moonesamy
- Re: [decade] DECADE WG to be closed Songhaibin
- Re: [decade] DECADE WG to be closed S Moonesamy
- Re: [decade] DECADE WG to be closed Songhaibin