Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt
Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> Tue, 04 December 2007 23:51 UTC
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Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt
References: <E1It5KL-00032t-Up@stiedprstage1.ietf.org> <20071203094351.GA19449@nic.fr> <2639.1196720643.545129@peirce.dave.cridland.net> <20071204161659.GA19161@nic.fr>
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:50:57 +0000
From: Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
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On Tue Dec 4 16:16:59 2007, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 10:24:03PM +0000, > Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> wrote a message of 89 lines > which said: > > > As good as any. > > May be ietf-smtp@imc.org would have been a better place? > > Possibly. But this one's been picked, now, and subaddressing isn't specific to SMTP, so this one works for me just as well. (Even if I'd somehow become unsubscribed). > > Subaddressing isn't described anywhere, > That's the whole point, I believe. Subaddressing has always been a > matter of local conventions (like the Firstname.Name@example.org > convention in many environments), not needing to be "described". > > Yes, it's a convention local to a specific ADMD. This memo does indeed describe one very common, and useful, convention. John Klensin (and, I think, Keith Moore) both suggested that I add text to make it exceptionally clear that externally to the ADMD, there is no way to tell if a particular address is (in the phrasing of the SIEVE subaddressing extension) a detailed address or not - these are indeed perfectly legal addresses. > If I understand you well, you suggest to create (not describe) a new > concept, "global subaddressing", with a standard delimiter and > subaddressing-aware software, allowing new tricks (like the MLM you > mention, which accepts mail only from subscribers and who can > recognize them even when they use subaddressing). > > That's may be a good idea but it is something new, not a description > of a current practice. > > Well, somewhat to my surprise, Keith said this has been going on for some time, and John said it was not especially different to the use of "post only" addresses. Arguably, this *is* current practise, albeit not widespread, and is unblessed primarily due to the absence of this document. I freely admit that there's cases of interpreting subaddressing where I'm unsure that the actor is doing the Right Thing, and hence there's also some tightening up to do. But, this is not a "global" thing, it's specific to an ADMD. The only case where I suggest (or rather, Chris Newman suggested and I watered down but essentially agree with) that actors external to the ADMD should consider the convention is MLMs, essentially because they're acting per-pro the user in a sense. Using a standard -- or at least heavily promoted -- delimiter doesn't preclude people from choosing another (or another method entirely), but it does mean that when deploying an MTA and a Store, for example, if both claim to be "Subaddress-aware", according to RFC-9999, then they'll both work together nicely. The purposeful use of the phrase "Subaddress-aware" is merely to provide a useful stamp with which to market your product - there's no more sinister intent than that. > > No, every component needs to know about it. > > > 1) The final MTA. > > 2) The MDA. > > 3) The MUA. > > 4) The Submission server. > > Can you explain why the MUA and the MSA need to know it? > > Some MSAs restrict usage of a reverse-path to specific authenticated users, for example, I might only be allowed to use <dave@cridland.net>, and not <james@cridland.net>. Such MSAs need to be aware that <dave+foo@cridland.net> is also valid for me, because it is the same "primary address", even if they've never seen it before. An MUA wishing to provide a user-friendly UI to subaddressing also needs to know the convention, in order to be capable of forming local-parts for use in both message header fields and envelope reverse-paths. If it's additionally performing some specific actions on message which are to be considered directly addressed to the user, then it needs to know for this, too. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:dave@cridland.net - xmpp:dwd@jabber.org - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt Randall Gellens
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt Bill McQuillan
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt Keith Moore
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt der Mouse
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt Keith Moore
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt Dave Cridland
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt Keith Moore
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt der Mouse
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt Dave Cridland
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt Tony Finch
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt Keith Moore
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt Dave Cridland
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt Randall Gellens
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt Randall Gellens
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt Randall Gellens
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt der Mouse
- Re: I-D Action:draft-newman-email-subaddr-01.txt Dave Cridland