Re: [Geopriv] New indoor location - standards needed

Robin Wilton <wilton@isoc.org> Fri, 05 December 2014 10:50 UTC

Return-Path: <wilton@isoc.org>
X-Original-To: geopriv@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: geopriv@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BABA21ACE1F for <geopriv@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 02:50:01 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.902
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LUyF3fkd-dqO for <geopriv@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 02:49:59 -0800 (PST)
Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2on0056.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.100.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28B2C1A0127 for <geopriv@ietf.org>; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 02:49:59 -0800 (PST)
Received: from CO2PR0601MB0983.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (25.160.7.28) by CO2PR0601MB0984.namprd06.prod.outlook.com (25.160.8.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.31.17; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 10:49:56 +0000
Received: from CO2PR0601MB0983.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([25.160.7.28]) by CO2PR0601MB0983.namprd06.prod.outlook.com ([25.160.7.28]) with mapi id 15.01.0031.000; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 10:49:56 +0000
From: Robin Wilton <wilton@isoc.org>
To: "Rosen, Brian" <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz>
Thread-Topic: [Geopriv] New indoor location - standards needed
Thread-Index: AQHQDzAsSV8u/FH9ykm5QZahA6TPVZx/uAtwgAAVkoCAAAFWAIABBYqA
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 10:49:55 +0000
Message-ID: <2F6AC914-BCB6-4F46-8D9D-810B5D0CE37D@isoc.org>
References: <D0A4CFA5.68817%mlinsner@cisco.com> <949EF20990823C4C85C18D59AA11AD8B28BBA1@FR712WXCHMBA11.zeu.alcatel-luc ent.com> <p0624060dd0a5a3cce274@[99.111.97.136]> <51581CA9D0965243B6931E4CDEDF3E4504CFB3A160@lmv08-mx02.corp.intrado.pri> <0109FDD4-FABA-45DF-9389-E56D58F65E90@neustar.biz>
In-Reply-To: <0109FDD4-FABA-45DF-9389-E56D58F65E90@neustar.biz>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach: yes
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-originating-ip: [94.174.34.240]
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CO2PR0601MB0984;
x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:;
x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:CO2PR0601MB0984;
x-forefront-prvs: 04163EF38A
x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(6009001)(51704005)(189002)(377454003)(13464003)(164054003)(24454002)(199003)(4396001)(19580405001)(19580395003)(99396003)(82746002)(31966008)(93886004)(97736003)(76176999)(54356999)(62966003)(77156002)(87936001)(83716003)(15975445007)(2656002)(50986999)(99936001)(99286002)(122556002)(68736005)(40100003)(120916001)(110136001)(106356001)(105586002)(106116001)(92566001)(86362001)(101416001)(46102003)(20776003)(21056001)(64706001)(33656002)(66066001)(107046002)(36756003)(102836002)(104396002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:CO2PR0601MB0984; H:CO2PR0601MB0983.namprd06.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en;
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_85B62378-D140-4449-8BB3-A198D02F4A31"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: isoc.org
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/geopriv/zgNJbRyh8SxtrcLlvNU-x3eoi5o
Cc: "geopriv@ietf.org geopriv@ietf.org" <geopriv@ietf.org>, "Marc \(mlinsner\) Linsner" <mlinsner@cisco.com>, "DRAGE, Keith \(Keith\)" <keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com>, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@qualcomm.com>
Subject: Re: [Geopriv] New indoor location - standards needed
X-BeenThere: geopriv@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Geographic Location/Privacy <geopriv.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/geopriv>, <mailto:geopriv-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/geopriv/>
List-Post: <mailto:geopriv@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:geopriv-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv>, <mailto:geopriv-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 10:50:02 -0000

Thanks, Brian, 

This nicely captures a thought that I had been trying to formulate.

For instance, I saw the discussion of using barometric data to estimate vertical location… and thought of existing work to triangulate the position of mobile handsets by using the relative strength of other types of network signal (wifi being the obvious one). As far as I’m aware, that is already technically possible and deployed - though not necessarily to an IETF specification.  

So while it’s interesting to consider the various options (barometric data, wifi triangulation, correlation with nearby ‘locatable’ devices, etc), the trick for the IETF is to convene interested parties at the right level of abstraction to define something that is independent of particular mechanisms.

My 2c...

Yrs.,
Robin


On 4 Dec 2014, at 19:15, Rosen, Brian <Brian.Rosen@neustar.biz> wrote:

> I see the problem differently.
> 
> While mobiles using licensed spectrum are clearly the biggest problem, any device that has a WiFi interface could use this mechanism to get a good location for an emergency call.  It isn’t using anything intrinsic to 3G/4G/5G systems.  It’s not a US-only problem.  Because you are linking multiple, independent networks, you need something like the IETF to do that work.
> 
> Brian
> 
>> On Dec 4, 2014, at 2:10 PM, Militeau, Christian <Christian.Militeau@intrado.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Randy,
>> 
>> I agree with your assessment. ATIS (along with NENA and APCO) is in the process of initiating planning to support standards development.
>> Once ATIS has agreed on something, then it will be more clear on what the IETF needs to do for standards support.
>> It is anticipated that there will be communications among SDOs (ATIS, 3GPP, IETF, IEEE, etc.) to discuss the support of a standards development plan and possibly coordination like we have done in the past with the Emergency Services Coordination Group.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Christian 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Geopriv [mailto:geopriv-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randall Gellens
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 10:41 PM
>> To: geopriv
>> Cc: Marc Linsner (mlinsner); DRAGE, Keith (Keith)
>> Subject: Re: [Geopriv] New indoor location - standards needed
>> 
>> I agree that there does appear to be standards work that may be needed, with a role for the IETF.  However, before we in the IETF in general or geopriv (or ecrit) in particular jump in with specific proposals, I think we need to understand the requirements and overall architecture.  Since we are discussing protocols to be used with cellular calls, we need to work with the cellular industry to be sure that what we develop meets their needs and will be used.
>> 
>> To my knowledge, there has been very little discussion, much less agreement, by an industry-specific SDO such as ATIS (since we are talking about the U.S.). Once this is done, the objectives for the IETF, as well as industry groups, will become clear.  In addition the FCC has not issued any new mandate as of yet and is still in an NPRM process.
>> 
>> Therefore, I think we need to wait until discussions on the requirements and architecture have further progressed by the industry groups.
>> 
>> --
>> Randall Gellens
>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: --------------- There is no unhappiness like the misery of sighting land (and work) again
>> after a cheerful, careless voyage.                          -- Mark Twain
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Geopriv mailing list
>> Geopriv@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Geopriv mailing list
>> Geopriv@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Geopriv mailing list
> Geopriv@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/geopriv