Re: [Iasa20] I-D Action: draft-hall-iasa20-workshops-report-00.txt

[Dave Crocker <[e-mail]>]

On 3/21/2017 10:26 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 22/03/2017 05:06, Dave Crocker wrote:
>> On 3/20/2017 6:29 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>> Better get used to it. Since the IETF is intentionally not incorporated
>>> and intentionally run by a rough consensus process, that line will never
>>> be clear-cut.
>>
>> The premise that the IETF's lack of incorporation somehow dictates
>> ambiguous lines of authority and/or management makes no sense.  The
>> latter are dictated by clarity of organization structure and crispness
>> of task and personnel management, not legal status.
>
> That's not quite what I was getting at; and I do believe that responsibilities
> can and should be well-defined. My point was that, having observed the IETF
> and various other organisations with a mixture of professional and volunteer
> effort, there is *always* a lack of crispness about what actually gets done
> by the volunteers as opposed to staff.


Brian,

Sorry for my confusion, but since you only cited the legal distinction 
and said nothing about paid/volunteer status, well...

And would that your clarification made your assessment more compelling, 
but alas, you are still quite wrong.

Volunteer-vs-Paid role confusion is equally due to lack of crisp 
structure and operations clarity, although sometimes also mixed with a 
lack of respect.  The sad fact is that volunteer-based organizations are 
often run quite badly, in spite of their lofty intentions.

FWIW, this isn't an abstract issue for me.  I was recently on a regional 
American Red Cross committee looking at volunteer (dis)satisfaction and 
this point was key, especially for the (mis)handling of senior 
volunteers. This has been dramatically improved by changes in culture 
and clarity (and respect), not changes in incorporation, payment, or any 
other formal attribute.  (Well, other than the formal change in 
employment some paid staff, replacing a few who had no respect for 
volunteers by others who are entirely constructive...)


> That's just a result of human nature

I've no idea what 'human nature' you are referring to.

Problems with structure and role confusion are due to lack of 
decision-making by management, insisting on crisp, clear structures, 
roles and operations.  And, yes, it's that simple.  Not easy, but simple.


> and the motivations and incentives that are at work. I'm not saying it's a
> bad thing, either, but it's life.

Well, "incentives" could well be an interesting line of discussion.


d/
-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net