Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering-06]
Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> Fri, 07 December 2018 20:46 UTC
Return-Path: <jared@puck.nether.net>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86528130E9D; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 12:46:21 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MARKETING_PARTNERS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mmOBgZ4NBUoS; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 12:46:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from puck.nether.net (puck.nether.net [204.42.254.5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A7C9129AB8; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 12:46:19 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [IPv6:2603:3015:3606:cbe1:d96:a9a:20d2:74d1] (unknown [IPv6:2603:3015:3606:cbe1:d96:a9a:20d2:74d1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by puck.nether.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 02CF05408BC; Fri, 7 Dec 2018 15:46:16 -0500 (EST)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\))
Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering-06]
From: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
In-Reply-To: <CAL9jLaYiMbMfyLK8b97TEqNcJVaQzfyC=HZvo4F01b3KZaYdVg@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 15:46:15 -0500
Cc: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, ietf <ietf@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering.all@ietf.org, heard@pobox.com, opsec wg mailing list <opsec@ietf.org>, tsv-art@ietf.org, Gert Doering <gert@space.net>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <B60C8071-9577-4935-A260-FAE0EF80AFCF@puck.nether.net>
References: <CACL_3VGeJPzDhS0RVAvpQs9W8b4EODft-qJRwBD6Xxm+X6BZ6A@mail.gmail.com> <CAL9jLabK0bZz2nki=oFNHT0OrpVAB8pw7emAj2BtkHRCzkfmqQ@mail.gmail.com> <cf64abbf-e447-71e3-b983-4e525cc139aa@gmail.com> <CAL9jLaYMRDGFa7Qzj4ukRV1FPbJM40qbuZ34SYxoA30Z+h3EWw@mail.gmail.com> <20181205085227.GG1543@Space.Net> <9ba948f9-f286-1016-2dbd-f7056a15e744@gmail.com> <74d89efc-bfba-6e54-ebb2-d688e45b139f@gmail.com> <20181206125726.GG1543@Space.Net> <d078ea0f-3c2c-f782-4c1a-b54c463b48ce@gmail.com> <CAKKJt-eNCeV4hS=v99NGAYFkkmLdSO5Cp9gk2ojdbZ5vrU7img@mail.gmail.com> <90130407-2B6E-491A-AB9B-BEBB45604D50@puck.nether.net> <CABcZeBNB3scdEm0aF99KeD3F=JvqCU1yaxL1cepFhnE+dg=0Wg@mail.gmail.com> <CAL9jLaYiMbMfyLK8b97TEqNcJVaQzfyC=HZvo4F01b3KZaYdVg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists@gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3)
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/Dxt_XxEn1VrL88pmehN7dR0vVIY>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 20:46:22 -0000
> On Dec 7, 2018, at 12:10 AM, Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 5:41 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote: > > routing area (key agility, a stronger algorithm than MD5). And of course TCP-AO doesn't attempt to provide privacy. Perhaps you can elaborate on what you're referring to here? > > > "TCP-AO is a lie, there is zero deployable code anywhere that supports it" > > was that the gist of his comment? > it'd be the whole of mine... because honestly it's the truth. I had written out a series of concerns around the requirements operators have.. I can’t find the paper around my office right now I wrote them on, but the went roughly like this: 1) We have long-lived TCP sessions, measured in years. (Implied: many of the transport people really prefer stable routes without flapping/jitter/reordering from us) 2) We use protocols that are stable as a result as transports 3) Security area does review and says “why is MD5 still a thing” without considering #2 and #1 above 4) When doing routing things like an iBGP mesh, key rotation can be complex in a multivendor environment when the catastrophic failure of the network substrate is the consequence of a software bug 5) If these keys (md5) are in use, they’re not rotated because we got that support much later than the ability to set/rotate them and coordination with a network partner to rotate them is feasible but reaches operational impossibility. 6) We need protection from tampering with the transport, not encryption of the transport. You will know where the routes go because I assume you’ve used a tool like traceroute before. There was a longer list. The point of this thread is if you do something “interesting” with your transport, be it IP options, EH, shift your protocol into a space that operators have policed out of necessity (not because we want it), expect broken things to happen. It’s not the early 90s anymore and rolling these things back is much harder than it was. I see daily attacks of hundreds of gigs of UDP against customers, and these won’t make it far because we won’t build network infrastructure to carry them to their destination. We will mitigate the issue, and as always there is collateral damage. If your protocol uses an ephermal port from Gert’s list to connect to a well known port, expect there to be problems. (Look at the history in the early 2000’s why this was built => http://www.zytrax.com/books/dns/ch7/hkpng.html#avoid ) This is not a limited problem to any single protocol, network, device role, etc. It’s not clear to me the IETF is presently equipped to respond to this, but I hope people are listening. - Jared
- Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-… Michael Scharf
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Fernando Gont
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Fernando Gont
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Fernando Gont
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Mark Andrews
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… C. M. Heard
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Mark Andrews
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … David Farmer
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Randy Bush
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christian Huitema
- HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Gert Doering
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Stewart Bryant
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Stewart Bryant
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Ole Troan
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Stewart Bryant
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Ole Troan
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Stewart Bryant
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Gert Doering
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Stewart Bryant
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Stewart Bryant
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Gert Doering
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Stewart Bryant
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Ole Troan
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Ole Troan
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Stewart Bryant
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Fernando Gont
- RE: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Smith, Donald
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… C. M. Heard
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Jared Mauch
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… C. M. Heard
- RE: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Smith, Donald
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Gert Doering
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Nico Williams
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Jared Mauch
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Christopher Morrow
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Pete Resnick
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Jared Mauch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Nico Williams
- OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-art] game ove… Jared Mauch
- Re: OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-art] game… Nico Williams
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-art] game… Gert Doering
- Engaging constructively [HbH flags [Tsvart last c… Alissa Cooper
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Wes Hardaker
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont