Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering-06
Gert Doering <gert@space.net> Mon, 26 November 2018 17:53 UTC
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Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 18:53:37 +0100
From: Gert Doering <gert@space.net>
To: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
Cc: Gert Doering <gert@space.net>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, ietf <ietf@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering.all@ietf.org, Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org>, OPSEC <opsec@ietf.org>, tsv-art <tsv-art@ietf.org>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering-06
Message-ID: <20181126175336.GW72840@Space.Net>
References: <977CA53D-7F72-4443-9DE2-F75F7A7C1569@strayalpha.com> <d6deb7af-99dd-9013-2722-8ebbe00c0b37@si6networks.com> <1CB13135-D87A-4100-8668-D761058E1388@strayalpha.com> <0f56c25d-7ac7-e534-4e2c-cc09f5154e77@foobar.org> <28EDE667-457E-4AED-8480-F27ECAA8E985@strayalpha.com> <6bd1ec94-f420-1f4c-9254-941814704dbb@gmail.com> <6be84ccf-9a72-2694-e19d-fa19043a0cb1@huitema.net> <4C249487-BD58-41BB-B8B6-081323E29F6C@strayalpha.com> <20181126075746.GO72840@Space.Net> <6C50775C-EB67-4236-93B8-DF0259E04167@strayalpha.com>
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Hi, On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 06:32:43AM -0800, Joe Touch wrote: > > And then IETF wonders why operators do not feel like time spent on > > providing their input to IETF WGs is well-spent. > > > > What else can it be, on a real-world device, in today's Internet? > > The failure of a device to run as advertised or the failure of an > operation to select the an appropriate device. This is where the "real-world" bit comes into play. > Operators that want to conserve resources without cause are welcome > to run their routers inside glass boxes in museums. Routers do > work. Packets cause that work. That work is not an attack unless > it is *disproportionate*. That is not shown for nearly any of the > cases in this document. As people have explained in great detail, there's work that the routers are built to do, where the number of packets they can handle is nearly arbitrarily high. Then there's packets that are seen as an exception, and handled in a not-as-powerful path. Back then, when the Internet was new, these exceptional packets were considered "something we'll handle when the need arises", and it mostly worked. Today, whenever anything is connected to the real Internet has a weakness, it will be abused. Thus, these packets will have to be rate-limited, up to the point of uselessness. Of course you can build a box that can do everything with the same speed. I would recommend to the reader to make himself familiar with current market realities, though, regarding "cost", "power consumption", "feasibility to build in time before the increase in bandwidth has them obsoleted again" and "willingness of customers to pay serious money for their Internet access". Gert Doering -- Operator -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
- Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-… Michael Scharf
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Fernando Gont
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Fernando Gont
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Fernando Gont
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Mark Andrews
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… C. M. Heard
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Mark Andrews
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … David Farmer
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Randy Bush
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christian Huitema
- HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Gert Doering
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Stewart Bryant
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Stewart Bryant
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Ole Troan
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Stewart Bryant
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Ole Troan
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Stewart Bryant
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Gert Doering
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Stewart Bryant
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Stewart Bryant
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Gert Doering
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Stewart Bryant
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Ole Troan
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Ole Troan
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Stewart Bryant
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Fernando Gont
- RE: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Smith, Donald
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… C. M. Heard
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Jared Mauch
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… C. M. Heard
- RE: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Smith, Donald
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Gert Doering
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Nico Williams
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Jared Mauch
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Christopher Morrow
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Pete Resnick
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Jared Mauch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Nico Williams
- OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-art] game ove… Jared Mauch
- Re: OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-art] game… Nico Williams
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-art] game… Gert Doering
- Engaging constructively [HbH flags [Tsvart last c… Alissa Cooper
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Wes Hardaker
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont