Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering-06]
Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> Thu, 06 December 2018 19:24 UTC
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Subject: Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering-06]
From: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
In-Reply-To: <CAKKJt-eNCeV4hS=v99NGAYFkkmLdSO5Cp9gk2ojdbZ5vrU7img@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 14:24:13 -0500
Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, IETF list <ietf@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering.all@ietf.org, heard@pobox.com, opsec@ietf.org, tsv-art@ietf.org, gert@space.net
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To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
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> On Dec 6, 2018, at 9:05 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > Speaking as an individual who ballots on working group charters ... > > On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 7:38 AM Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 06/12/2018 12:57, Gert Doering wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Thu, Dec 06, 2018 at 10:28:53AM +0000, Stewart Bryant wrote: > >> However, aren't we moving to a world where new protocols get carried > >> over UDP anyway? > > Over HTTPS, you intended to say? > Some and some. It depends on what aspect of the stack you spend your > time thinking about. > > "you're both right" :-) ... > > As noted earlier in this thread, we punted new transport protocols into UDP encapsulation at roughly the "we can't get SCTP deployed at scale, we can't get DCCP deployed at scale, and we don't see any reason to think that any new transport protocol will be any different" stage, at least a decade ago. So, when I see people talking about SCTP, it's usually in a context like RTCWeb, where the stack looks like SCTP/DTLS/UDP, and QUIC is only defined over UDP. > > (I suspect the world would have been a slightly better place if we'd done the DCCP encapsulation in UDP from day 1, because DCCP functionality could have been really useful when we started encapsulating every known network protocol in UDP, but that's not relevant to this discussion) > > But since QUIC's initial deliverable includes its HTTP mapping, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-httpbis-bcp56bis/ comes into play. I would oversimplify that draft as saying "we are way more excited about applications using HTTP as a substrate now, than we were in 2002", so, yes, the future smells a lot like HTTPS over (mumble) over UDP, at least to me. > > I don't know that's a perfect plan, but I've been balloting on working group charters for at least 3 years, assuming that it's a plan. Yes, we’ve also seen the security/crypto all the things overreach impact the routing area as well. We’ve not seen a suitable option to replace TCP transport that is viable due to the timescales involved. I’ve provided feedback at the mic in London in SAAG about the problems of this for people who need very reliable transport, some level of transport security but do not want or require transport privacy. - Jared
- Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-… Michael Scharf
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Fernando Gont
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Fernando Gont
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Fernando Gont
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Mark Andrews
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… C. M. Heard
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Joe Touch
- Re: Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Mark Andrews
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … David Farmer
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Randy Bush
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christian Huitema
- HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Gert Doering
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Stewart Bryant
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Stewart Bryant
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Ole Troan
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Stewart Bryant
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Ole Troan
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Stewart Bryant
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Gert Doering
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Stewart Bryant
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Stewart Bryant
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Gert Doering
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Stewart Bryant
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Ole Troan
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Ole Troan
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Stewart Bryant
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Joe Touch
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Fernando Gont
- RE: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Smith, Donald
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… C. M. Heard
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Jared Mauch
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… C. M. Heard
- RE: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Smith, Donald
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Gert Doering
- Re: game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of dra… Nico Williams
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Jared Mauch
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Christopher Morrow
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Joe Touch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Pete Resnick
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Jared Mauch
- Re: HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of draft-i… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Joe Touch
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Nico Williams
- OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-art] game ove… Jared Mauch
- Re: OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-art] game… Nico Williams
- Re: [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call rev… Eric Rescorla
- Re: OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-art] game… Gert Doering
- Engaging constructively [HbH flags [Tsvart last c… Alissa Cooper
- Re: ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-o… Wes Hardaker
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont