Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ?
Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com> Tue, 27 October 2020 01:41 UTC
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From: Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com>
To: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
CC: "wgchairs@ietf.org" <wgchairs@ietf.org>, RFC Interest <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, "rsoc@iab.org" <rsoc@iab.org>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ?
Thread-Topic: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ?
Thread-Index: AQHWq8nHuGg0JtFOcUGgjys0Ih1qXamqaPaxgAAmtQCAAAn2gIAADAmAgAAEWYCAAAL+Sg==
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 01:41:29 +0000
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I did mean to say that it is very useful to have page numbers, headers and footers on paginated output, eg. PDF. If the TXT version is also intended for printing (I only read them on a computer, but I digress), it should retain them. _____________________________________ Ronald Tse Ribose Inc. On Oct 27, 2020, at 9:31 AM, Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com> wrote: Thanks John for the clarification. There is some confusion to me whether the intention is just about the TXT output having page numbers, or for the PDF to also have the same page numbers, and whether to use page numbers inside cross references. There was a also discussion about a ToC and page numbers, but perhaps that was a diversion. If the discussion is only about the ASCII output having page numbers, I have no objection because it is (nearly) purely cosmetic (in publication and in usage of the text, being done by xml2rfc). If having page numbers will require the PDF output to also have page numbers, this inevitably leads to some shared spec between the TXT and PDF outputs on the topic of pagination, which is less ideal, but since I assume that is the work of xml2rfc, it’s not a concern to us as tool maintainers. Adding page numbers to cross references can make reading confusing — since the cross references between the paginated and flowed versions will render these references differently. It’s doable, but again this requirement ties the paginated versions (TXT and PDF) together for consistency. Of course, if the PDF output is simply an enhanced PDF-ized TXT version, these aren’t really issues. _____________________________________ Ronald Tse Ribose Inc. On Oct 27, 2020, at 9:15 AM, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com<mailto:john-ietf@jck.com>> wrote: --On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 00:32 +0000 Ronald Tse <tse@ribose.com<mailto:tse@ribose.com>> wrote: My two cents: why don't we just run a poll to see what the "consensus" is? There are some other issues with polls that people have addressed so I won't repeat here, but... To me, standardizing page numbers is the wrong direction — one of the features of XML RFC is to allow rendering content into different formats. Having page numbers for the ASCII version is fine (it's only being done by xml2rfc anyway), but requiring these numbers inside the XML is putting the cart before the horse. Unless I have missed something important as I have skimmed this thread, no one has advocated anything that could be described as "requiring ... numbers inside the XML". We had paginated and numbered RFCs all through the lives of xml2rfc v1 and v2 and still have paginated and numbered I-Ds, none of them requiring numbering within the XML source. The issue here, at least as I understand it, is that we have three output forms for RFCs: PDF (inherently page-image and paginated), HTML (inherently producing output that is line-flowed and unpaginated although it can certainly produce other forms as rendered results), and text. The latter was originally supposed to be preserved in as close to the historical ASCII text pages as possible but the powers that be decided that the conversion from the XML should retain the fixed-length lines but drop pagination and headers and footers with line numbers. AFAICT, it is only that last decision that is under review / discussion here. And, again, if the PDF form did not have those headers and footers with page numbers on the latter, I'd be much more sympathetic to arguments that page numbers were harmful (or confusing, etc.) and should hence be suppressed in RFCs. And even if one accepts page numbers as evil, that doesn't make a case against paginating and retaining headers and footers in the text format. But I think I'm repeating myself so should stop. john _______________________________________________ rfc-interest mailing list rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest
- Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? (w… Toerless Eckert
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) … Robert Sparks
- Re: [irsg] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Alessandro Vesely
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Toerless Eckert
- Re: [irsg] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Toerless Eckert
- Re: Not a Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty pl… John Levine
- Re: Not a Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty pl… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [irsg] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Not a Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty pl… Toerless Eckert
- Re: [irsg] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty p… Toerless Eckert
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? John Scudder
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Carsten Bormann
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Not a Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty pl… Andrew G. Malis
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Flemming Andreasen
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Andrew G. Malis
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? John C Klensin
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Matty K
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Toerless Eckert
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? David Noveck
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? John C Klensin
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Toerless Eckert
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … Ronald Tse
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? John C Klensin
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … Toerless Eckert
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … John C Klensin
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … Ronald Tse
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … Ronald Tse
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … John C Klensin
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … Ronald Tse
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … Larry Masinter
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … Randy Bush
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … Ted Lemon
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Keith Moore
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … John Scudder
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … Ted Lemon
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … John Scudder
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … Ted Lemon
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Keith Moore
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Andrew G. Malis
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: RFC mutation, with or without page numbers John Levine
- RE: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Andrew Campling
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Mark Andrews
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … Michael StJohns
- Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty … Toerless Eckert
- Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ? Matthew Kerwin