Re: Predictable Internet Time
Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Fri, 21 April 2017 17:26 UTC
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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 12:26:27 -0500
From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: Phillip Hallam-Baker <phill@hallambaker.com>
Cc: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>, IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>, Patrik Fältström <paf@frobbit.se>
Subject: Re: Predictable Internet Time
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References: <CAMm+Lwi_jU6gjdtdM6a2n_9_89tUvWBNXxnMtSjTEA++h1D4Ew@mail.gmail.com> <e0a43370-751f-808c-3719-9716f9cd57d1@isi.edu> <B990A5A4-D62B-4E10-9FF7-7BA4377C0958@frobbit.se> <7bc1a350-549c-c649-81c6-bcd19cff36d7@cisco.com> <B2E6846E-F25B-4792-8E13-B5D898B67223@frobbit.se> <9f719b6a-f3c0-ef98-1636-86e84106e366@cisco.com> <16db07fe-acc5-d178-b56c-755c3cf70680@cs.ucla.edu> <CAMm+LwjQ_kaSBzcJhem5CbPLvMCAJRFnRpqJgu8SFTTQpt4bzQ@mail.gmail.com> <20170418222004.GB2856@localhost> <CAMm+LwgRegXgM3TqRJW_jfv+S6GrJ5RqJkpfaX0xQ0M7ZO_gPA@mail.gmail.com>
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On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 12:32:11PM -0400, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 6:20 PM, Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> > wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 05:34:11PM -0500, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > > > As I said, I want 30-100 years lead time so I can bake the schedule into > > > devices and remove a trust dependency. > > > > 30 years' lead time for leap seconds? Can't be done. > > > > Leap seconds depend on events such as earthquakes. > > > > You can estimate their frequency, but you can't estimate when they'll be > > inserted. > > > > Of course it can be done. I can show you one very simple algorithm that > allows every leap second to the end of time to be known right now: > > "All leap seconds are abolished. UTC = TAI +37 for all future dates." That's moving the goal posts, and it's not your smeared time proposal. Good, because smeared time is a terrible idea. We don't need more time standards to convert between. Smearing time does not make UTC go away, nor conversions to/from UTC. Systems will always need to know about leap seconds in order to convert to/from UTC because there will always be parts of the system (or apps) that need TAI or something close to TAI. Smearing does not make that go away -- it solves nothing. "Internet time" (that which we use in [new] Internet protocols) should just be TAI. And every existing Internet protocol should be updated to indicate which time is used in practice, UTC or TAI, regardless of what was originally specified. Nico --
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Nico Williams
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Toerless Eckert
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Patrik Fältström
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Nico Williams
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Nico Williams
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Izaac
- Predictable Internet Time Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Predictable Internet Time sandy
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Patrik Fältström
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Eliot Lear
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Patrik Fältström
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Eliot Lear
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Tony Finch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Cyrus Daboo
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Jared Mauch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Stewart Bryant
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Cyrus Daboo
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Stewart Bryant
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Stewart Bryant
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Stewart Bryant
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Cyrus Daboo
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Ted Lemon
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Stewart Bryant
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Eliot Lear
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time John C Klensin
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Pete Resnick
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Cyrus Daboo
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Tony Finch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Tony Finch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Paul Eggert
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Tony Finch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Patrik Fältström
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Tony Finch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Philip Homburg
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Tony Finch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Tony Finch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Patrik Fältström
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Eliot Lear
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Stewart Bryant
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Leif Johansson
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Eliot Lear
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Leif Johansson
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Patrik Fältström
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Nico Williams
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Michael Breuer
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Nico Williams
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Tony Finch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Patrik Fältström
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Joe Touch
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Nico Williams
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Nico Williams
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Nico Williams
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Nico Williams
- Re: Predictable Internet Time Harald Alvestrand