RE: The Evils of Informational RFC's
"Richard Shockey" <richard@shockey.us> Thu, 09 September 2010 12:06 UTC
Return-Path: <richard@shockey.us>
X-Original-To: ietf@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC0A23A682D for <ietf@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 9 Sep 2010 05:06:37 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -102.287
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.287 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UyF+h7G10ZHy for <ietf@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 9 Sep 2010 05:06:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from oproxy2-pub.bluehost.com (oproxy2-pub.bluehost.com [67.222.39.60]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 88D1F3A67AB for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 9 Sep 2010 05:06:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (qmail 10035 invoked by uid 0); 9 Sep 2010 12:07:00 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO box462.bluehost.com) (74.220.219.62) by oproxy2.bluehost.com with SMTP; 9 Sep 2010 12:07:00 -0000
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=shockey.us; h=Received:From:To:Cc:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language:X-Identified-User; b=c0YRkBMLt588sfsNQOVNI/h3/YYXYd4HuT13shfyPPWrMvM0DRFDQ5t5OTI/zQNAco8QTSvMaUbxJv2Y5V1UGMvoI9fIVJxSwaJgMiYELRydGOhCuQRWJMOxvGGlueHH;
Received: from pool-173-79-200-247.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([173.79.200.247] helo=RSHOCKEYPC) by box462.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <richard@shockey.us>) id 1Otfu7-0001Ol-4Z; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 06:07:00 -0600
From: Richard Shockey <richard@shockey.us>
To: 'Fred Baker' <fred@cisco.com>, 'Eric Burger' <eburger@standardstrack.com>
References: <4C815335.4050209@bennett.com> <4C81554D.5060000@gmail.com> <4C8169DF.7010202@bennett.com> <4C8172AC.9060202@gmail.com> <4C817866.7040400@bennett.com> <4C817C6F.8070303@gmail.com> <4C818963.4090106@bennett.com> <21B56D7B-F058-47C8-8CBB-B35F82E1A0D2@standardstrack.com> <97C9AEF7-98A7-4EDF-9BDA-895847FEFB19@cisco.com>
In-Reply-To: <97C9AEF7-98A7-4EDF-9BDA-895847FEFB19@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: The Evils of Informational RFC's
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 08:06:55 -0400
Message-ID: <005801cb5017$7ffd55d0$7ff80170$@us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0
Thread-Index: ActPwUhF7pJkX269Qme+VIVk81QMxQAVfTHQ
Content-Language: en-us
X-Identified-User: {3286:box462.bluehost.com:shockeyu:shockey.us} {sentby:smtp auth 173.79.200.247 authed with richard@shockey.us}
Cc: 'IETF Discussion' <ietf@ietf.org>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 12:06:37 -0000
And add to that one that Mr Burger should vaguely recall :-) http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3482.txt Number Portability in the Global Switched Telephone Network (GSTN): An Overview -----Original Message----- From: ietf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ietf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 9:49 PM To: Eric Burger Cc: IETF Discussion Subject: Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Please, no. The RFC Series is not a collection of standards. It is community memory, and in it we have white papers that have been seminal such as RFC 970, problem statements, requirements documents, and analyses of a wide variety, all of which are informational. Let me give you two specific examples: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2804.txt 2804 IETF Policy on Wiretapping. IAB, IESG. May 2000. (Format: TXT=18934 bytes) (Status: INFORMATIONAL) http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3924.txt 3924 Cisco Architecture for Lawful Intercept in IP Networks. F. Baker, B. Foster, C. Sharp. October 2004. (Format: TXT=40826 bytes) (Status: INFORMATIONAL) The former gives a view on the topic of lawful interception, and requests that anyone that develops an interception technology publish it so that it can be reviewed openly within the community. The latter does exactly that. The collected experience in the RFC series is at least as valuable as the protocol descriptions in it. On Sep 9, 2010, at 12:03 AM, Eric Burger wrote: > Can we please, please, please kill Informational RFC's? Pre-WWW, having publicly available documentation of hard-to-get proprietary protocols was certainly useful. However, in today's environment of thousands of Internet-connected publication venues, why would we possibly ask ourselves to shoot ourselves in the foot by continuing the practice of Informational RFC publication? > > On Sep 3, 2010, at 7:48 PM, Richard Bennett wrote: > >> With respect, Brian, I don't think this is simply the failure of journalists to discern the distinction between Informational RFCs and Standards Track RFCs. Nobody has made the claim that the IETF produced a standard for accounting and billing for QoS or anything else. Informational RFCs are a perfectly fine record of what certain people in the IETF community may be "envisioning" at a given time, as long as people understand that "envisioning" is not the same as "requiring," which is basic English literacy. > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Brian E Carpenter
- RE: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Shockey
- My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Russ Housley
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Marshall Eubanks
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 David Morris
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Russ Housley
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 John C Klensin
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Ofer Inbar
- RE: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Worley, Dale R (Dale)
- RE: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Shockey
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Bennett
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Bennett
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Bennett
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Bennett
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Bennett
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Bennett
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Bennett
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Randall Gellens
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Livingood, Jason
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Livingood, Jason
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Bennett
- RE: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Shockey
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Bennett
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Matthew Ford
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTLABS)
- RE: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Chris Fenton (Iridescent)
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Patrik Faltstrom (pfaltstr)
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Ben Niven-Jenkins
- RE: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Worley, Dale R (Dale)
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Russ Housley
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Bennett
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Bennett
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Marshall Eubanks
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Marshall Eubanks
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Bennett
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Marshall Eubanks
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Bennett
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Bennett
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Randall Gellens
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Mans Nilsson
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Theodore Tso
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Bennett
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Theodore Tso
- The Evils of Informational RFC's Eric Burger
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Paul Hoffman
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Iljitsch van Beijnum
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Jorge Amodio
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Gene Gaines
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Eric Burger
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Bob Hinden
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Eric Burger
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Bennett
- RE: The Evils of Informational RFC's Ronald Bonica
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Richard L. Barnes
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Bob Hinden
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Jorge Amodio
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Brian E Carpenter
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Richard Bennett
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Richard Bennett
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Richard L. Barnes
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Andrew G. Malis
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Brian E Carpenter
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Stephen Farrell
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's David Morris
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Fred Baker
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Olaf Kolkman
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Richard Bennett
- RE: The Evils of Informational RFC's Richard Shockey
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Dave CROCKER
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Kevin Fall
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Bob Braden
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Sam Hartman
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Russ Housley
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Yoav Nir
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Jari Arkko
- Re: The Evils of Informational RFC's Dave CROCKER
- Re: My comments to the press about RFC 2474 Randall Gellens