IETF Logo Mail Archive

RE: Author disclosures and conflict of interest

"Lawrence Rosen" <lrosen@rosenlaw.com> Fri, 25 April 2014 18:25 UTC

Return-Path: <lrosen@rosenlaw.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AEF41A06BB for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 25 Apr 2014 11:25:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 1.033
X-Spam-Level: *
X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.033 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5qggyVMbEBFf for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 25 Apr 2014 11:25:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.23.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DB7BA1A03B3 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Fri, 25 Apr 2014 11:25:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (qmail 14599 invoked by uid 0); 25 Apr 2014 18:25:17 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO CMOut01) (10.0.90.82) by gproxy4.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 25 Apr 2014 18:25:16 -0000
Received: from box597.bluehost.com ([66.147.242.197]) by CMOut01 with id uJRC1n00w4GF2VN01JRFpa; Fri, 25 Apr 2014 12:25:16 -0600
X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=EOmVjTpC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=NRJ8aB/FPT4S3utBguGD+g==:117 a=NRJ8aB/FPT4S3utBguGD+g==:17 a=cNaOj0WVAAAA:8 a=f5113yIGAAAA:8 a=qDS3CPt326AA:10 a=7xXQEuv9rCMA:10 a=CAIbOuo8jNoA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=4F77bVRYAAAA:8 a=FxJxCPAPh0wA:10 a=AqkBdCNi7UMA:10 a=b8OvNEjoAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=k7Ga1wGzAAAA:8 a=fXoRIVcCAy0no2r3a44A:9 a=oxI6iyhCo0vkgK1z:21 a=avtQ2T0QmzC21Ykf:21 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=x3I_HB9Tk8MA:10 a=E1Snkw02GREA:10 a=B0a0FVVDmlMA:10 a=lZB815dzVvQA:10
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rosenlaw.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Cc:To:From:Reply-To; bh=0kAk3Kb+3F6LhTdZAcWQiACXtSJvpYrphNDvepoQK+c=; b=IX/+naKOQMqfyzM+SGIglnzaR/uCfynRNKcdnYaHkrCrRVXwid+2+nrw4vh1JLkC5e/h5AT+kE7/IutQA9ppuoicSOECWSNm1yFdL5OarXAyJTwmRuxymM6UsL/Kpbt+;
Received: from [70.36.224.178] (port=59287 helo=Lawrencei) by box597.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <lrosen@rosenlaw.com>) id 1Wdko7-0004AS-H0; Fri, 25 Apr 2014 12:25:07 -0600
From: Lawrence Rosen <lrosen@rosenlaw.com>
To: ietf@ietf.org
References: <003401cf5cbc$8321ef40$8965cdc0$@rosenlaw.com> <535A9F58.1080105@dcrocker.net>
In-Reply-To: <535A9F58.1080105@dcrocker.net>
Subject: RE: Author disclosures and conflict of interest
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 11:25:05 -0700
Message-ID: <04ee01cf60b3$b079f9b0$116ded10$@rosenlaw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0
Thread-Index: AQKXcE4LMzjvYQvi+4zFEB3vA0KOeQHP60eTmYQB90A=
Content-Language: en-us
X-Identified-User: {1397:box597.bluehost.com:rosenla1:rosenlaw.com} {sentby:smtp auth 70.36.224.178 authed with lrosen@rosenlaw.com}
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/ueRfQReh-oJHKN4_n58r0HIQQr8
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
Reply-To: lrosen@rosenlaw.com
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 18:25:26 -0000

Dave Crocker wrote:
> The proper model for such an environment is that everyone 
> who participates is biased and has an agenda.

Dave, thanks for engaging in this important topic.

We all expect bias in standards organizations -- indeed it is a irreducible
factor in science and engineering and all human endeavors (and particularly
so in my profession, law!). I don't think anyone here is naïve about that.

Please don't demand more than is possible out of an ethics policy. But also
please don't give up the moral high ground just because we all fall short of
moral perfection. There is a middle way: Disclosure of potential conflicts
of interest that allows each of us to judge those biases for ourselves. 

We should be expected to sign our contributions and disclose our potential
biases and conflicts of interest. Then the buyers will have reason to trust
the sellers.

/Larry


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Crocker [mailto:dhc@dcrocker.net] 
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 10:46 AM
To: lrosen@rosenlaw.com; ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Author disclosures and conflict of interest

On 4/20/2014 10:18 AM, Lawrence Rosen wrote:
> Such a disclosure requirement would further encourage everyone to 
> trust and implement IETF specifications.


Probably not.

Although the IETF has participation from the full range of academia,
research-ia, and industry, it's really and industry-driven environment,
since successful output of the IETF results in products and services.

The proper model for such an environment is that everyone who participates
is biased and has an agenda.

Seriously.  Expecting anything is frankly naive.

What mitigates that realistic view is balance among competing biases and
competing goals, and of course transparency in the processes and in the
details of what is produced.

Intellectual property is really the only area of potential opacity that
should (and does) concern us.

Trust in IETF work comes from timely utility, not abstract disclosures.

d/


--
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email