RE: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-for-transport-qos-00.txt
Lin Han <Lin.Han@huawei.com> Thu, 19 October 2017 16:54 UTC
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From: Lin Han <Lin.Han@huawei.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
CC: 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-for-transport-qos-00.txt
Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-for-transport-qos-00.txt
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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 16:53:51 +0000
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Hi, Brain I have forwarded the draft to TSVWG for further discussion and review. Thanks Lin -----Original Message----- From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2017 12:58 PM To: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>; Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> Cc: 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org> Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-for-transport-qos-00.txt On 18/10/2017 07:16, Toerless Eckert wrote: > As mentioned in my prior mail: RSVP-IP deployments got killed by SPs > that filtered packets with router-alert because common network devices > punted packets because of the presence of router-alert. Router alert in IPv6 *is* a hop-by-hop option [RFC2711], so the code path for this proposal starts exactly the same as the code path for processing an RSVP message. > Instead of punting them because of presence of RSVP-router-alert > option. And of course you can blame IP multicast: every router started > to punt router-alert because of MLD (and of course us multicast folks > missed the chance to fix this in MLDv2 because it only tried to > duplicate IGMPv3), but no RFC told developers to punt because of router-alert + value in the router alert. > AFAIK, the same applies to hop-by-hop option in general. Alas, even > rfc7045 did not discuss this issue. > > IMHO we need a mechanism that specifies: devices MUST NOT punt/slow > down packets because of the presence of this mechanism, but only > because of presence of > (mechanism,value) where value is intended to be supported by device. > If the device can not do this, then it MUST IGNORE this mechanism and > forward packets with the mechanism as if the option was not present. That's pretty much what RFC7045/RC8200 say, except that they say it as a warning. As Ole said - within a domain where hop-by-hop option X is supported, you can reasonably expect that all routers process X. But (excuse me repeating myself), whether X is worth doing is not really a question for 6man. In this case, it belongs where QoS is discussed, which is TSVWG. Brian > One simple way to do this is to define hop-by-hop-fixed that does say > exactly this and then hopefully allow all existing hop-by-hop TLV to > live underneath that fixed hop-by-hop-fixed option. But i would > certainly suggest to review processing complexity and extensibility before such a conclusion. > > Personally i prefer inband UDP layer signaling, not because i do not > like IPv6 option headers but because there is just no ubiquitous API > to allow apps independent of OS enhancements to set arbitrary options > headers, especially ones that are not yet defined (allow apps to fully defined the whole header bit by bit). > Lets say from a javascript app in a browser. And i am more interested > in ease of adoption than in architectural cleanlyness. But of course > its perfectly valid to do the architectural clean appraoch and then > prove me wrong and get that option adopted more ;-)) > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 09:54:52AM -0700, Tom Herbert wrote: >> On one hand, IETF defined extension headers as the extensibility >> mechanism of IPv6, but yet on the other hand the message seems to be >> to not use them because deployed devices don't correctly support the >> protocol. The upshot is that we see proposals in other WGs of >> stuffing network layer information into transport protocols (options >> or >> payloads) with the full expectation that intermediate nodes will >> parse into the transport layer, process the embedded information, and >> possibly even overwrite transport layer information. IMO that is an >> architectural abomination and further abandonment of the end to end >> model! >> >>> While the 6man working group can certainly help the authors with those considerations, I believe the work would have to be owned somewhere else. >>> And it might be a little too early to go into the details of packet formats etc. >>> >> Agreed, but I do think the 6man working group has a vested interest >> to make sure that network layer information stays in the network layer. >> At some point the information needed is going to be so complex that >> it won't be able to be conveyed in any fields of the IP header. >> >> Tom >> >>> Best regards, >>> Ole >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 --------------------------------------------------------------------
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Lin Han
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Ole Troan
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Toerless Eckert
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Tom Herbert
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Ole Troan
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Tom Herbert
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Toerless Eckert
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Tom Herbert
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Tom Herbert
- RE: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Lin Han
- RE: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Lin Han
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Toerless Eckert
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Toerless Eckert
- RE: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Tom Herbert
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Toerless Eckert
- RE: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Manfredi, Albert E
- RE: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Toerless Eckert
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Tom Herbert
- Flow label [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Brian E Carpenter
- Hop-by-hop [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Hop-by-hop [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Tom Herbert
- RE: Hop-by-hop [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Flow label [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Toerless Eckert
- Re: Flow label [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Ole Troan
- Re: Hop-by-hop [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Toerless Eckert
- Re: Hop-by-hop [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Toerless Eckert
- Re: Flow label [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Tom Herbert
- Re: Hop-by-hop [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Toerless Eckert
- Re: Flow label [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Ole Troan
- RE: Hop-by-hop [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Lin Han
- Re: Flow label [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Tom Herbert
- RE: Hop-by-hop [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Manfredi, Albert E
- Re: Flow label [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Ole Troan
- Re: Flow label [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Leddy, John
- Re: Flow label [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Tom Herbert
- Re: Flow label [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Toerless Eckert
- Re: Flow label [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Flow label [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Flow label [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Tom Herbert
- RE: Hop-by-hop [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Lin Han
- Re: Flow label [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Hop-by-hop [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Hop-by-hop [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Lin Han
- Re: Flow label [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Tom Herbert
- Re: Flow label [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: I-D Action: draft-han-6man-in-band-signaling-… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Hop-by-hop [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Mark Smith
- RE: Hop-by-hop [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Manfredi, Albert E
- 答复: Hop-by-hop [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Tuboyan
- RE: Hop-by-hop [not draft-han-6man-in-band-signal… Lin Han