Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability issue
"Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> Tue, 10 November 2020 14:43 UTC
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From: "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
CC: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>, IPv6 IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>, "draft-mishra-6man-variable-slaac@ietf.org" <draft-mishra-6man-variable-slaac@ietf.org>, Dusan Mudric <dusan.mudric@gmail.com>, Dmytro Shytyi <dmytro@shytyi.net>
Subject: Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability issue
Thread-Topic: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability issue
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Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 14:43:17 +0000
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Alex, > -----Original Message----- > From: Alexandre Petrescu [mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 2:58 AM > To: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>; Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> > Cc: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>; IPv6 IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; draft-mishra-6man-variable-slaac@ietf.org; Dusan > Mudric <dusan.mudric@gmail.com>; Dmytro Shytyi <dmytro@shytyi.net> > Subject: Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability issue> > > There is something strange in calling a mobile a site. > > To me, a site is very much a fixed location. IMHO, "fixed location" is a very 20th century viewpoint. Internetworking has gone mobile in the 21st century, and each mobile is a site unto itself. Fred > Alex > > Le 10/11/2020 à 01:09, Mark Andrews a écrit : > > I’ve got no problem with a airplane being a site nor a car being a site. > > That said, my car is a node on whichever mobile phone the driver has currently, but > > that may well change in the future. > > > > Things can change role in this space. A cell phone may be router or just a node. > > A car may be a router or just a node. > > > > Mark > > > >> On 10 Nov 2020, at 10:37, Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >> > >> Mark, what you are saying makes a lot of sense to me in terms of what we are seeing > >> in the real world today. I was thinking that our airplanes are another example of a > >> (multi-addressed) site > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Mark Andrews [mailto:marka@isc.org] > >>> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2020 3:20 PM > >>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> > >>> Cc: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>; IPv6 IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; draft-mishra-6man-variable-slaac@ietf.org; > Alexandre > >>> Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>; Dusan Mudric <dusan.mudric@gmail.com>; Dmytro Shytyi <dmytro@shytyi.net> > >>> Subject: Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability issue > >>> > >>> Well people where thinking at the time that a person could be a site in terms > >>> of wearable networks. They are now a common reality with cell phones providing > >>> a uplink. /48 was chosen with that concept in mind. > >> > >> What you are saying makes a lot of sense to me in terms of what we are seeing > >> in the real world today. In addition to people with their cellphones, I was thinking > >> that our commercial airplanes are another example of a site, and then so are > >> terrestrial vehicles and urban air mobility vehicles. All are sites; all are (mobile) > >> IoTs; all need multi-addressing. > >> > >> Thanks - Fred > >> > >>> Mark > >>> > >>>> On 10 Nov 2020, at 10:10, Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I think the notion of what constitutes a “site” has advanced significantly since the > >>>> publication of RFC6177 – to the point that today even my cellphone could be seen > >>>> as a “site” in terms of the multi-addressing requirements its internal networks and > >>>> applications may require. Things that once were regarded as uni-addressed end > >>>> systems are now becoming (massively) multi-addressed IoTs. So an RFC6177-sized > >>>> IPv6 prefix for my cellphone could potentially be put to good use. > >>>> > >>>> Fred > >>>> > >>>> From: Gyan Mishra [mailto:hayabusagsm@gmail.com] > >>>> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2020 2:53 PM > >>>> To: Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> > >>>> Cc: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>; Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Dmytro Shytyi > >>> <dmytro@shytyi.net>; Dusan Mudric <dusan.mudric@gmail.com>; IPv6 IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; draft-mishra-6man-variable- > >>> slaac@ietf.org > >>>> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability issue > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 5:14 PM Templin (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > >>>> Brian, brief comment/question below: > >>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter > >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2020 1:58 PM > >>>>> To: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> > >>>>> Cc: IPv6 IPv6 List <ipv6@ietf.org>; draft-mishra-6man-variable-slaac@ietf.org; Alexandre Petrescu > >>> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>; > >>>>> Dusan Mudric <dusan.mudric@gmail.com>; Dmytro Shytyi <dmytro@shytyi.net> > >>>>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability issue > >>>>> > >>>>> This message was sent from outside of Boeing. Please do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender > and > >>>>> know that the content is safe. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> In line... > >>>>> > >>>>> On 10-Nov-20 04:35, Gyan Mishra wrote: > >>>>>> Brian > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In-line > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 3:14 PM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Gyan, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I don't think you were around for the original discussions, so there is an aspect that is missing from your logic below. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The inclusion of a separate interface identifier field in IP addresses was an entirely intentional feature of IPng. If all we had > >>> wanted > >>>>> to do was IPv4 with bigger addresses, that's what we would have done and the address length would have undoubtedly been > 64 > >>> bits. > >>>>> In fact there were various proposals to do exactly that, with a variety of associated transition and coexistence mechanisms. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> But the rough consensus was to do more than that, and to allow *extra* space in the address for an interface identifier that > >>> was > >>>>> not part of the subnetting mechanism. Originally it was going to be 48 bits, so the longest subnet prefix would have been 80; on > >>>>> second thoughts it was set to 64, which gave *exactly* the same extension to the subnettable space as we would have got > from > >>> IPv4 > >>>>> with bigger addresses. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> That isn't inconsistent with what we now call BCP198, which says that on links where an interface identifier & SLAAC isn't > >>> needed, > >>>>> subnetting can extend out to /127. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> All that was despite the fact that we hadn't even realised the potential privacy benefits of a host-defined interface > identifier at > >>> the > >>>>> time; that is much more recent. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As far "day 1" goes, please remember that DHCPv6 is a retro-fit: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> RFC1971 IPv6 Stateless Address Autoconfiguration. August 1996 > >>>>>> RFC3315 Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol for IPv6 (DHCPv6). July 2003. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Gyan> Makes sense then that as DHCPv6 was a retrofit “add on” to the base architecture that this issue came about > >>> afterwards. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> (In fairness, draft-ietf-addrconf-ipv6-auto-00 was dated January 1995 and draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-00 was dated February > 1995, > >>> but > >>>>> it advanced very slowly compared to SLAAC.) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Gyan> From a problem statement perspective do you agree with the title of this thread “Day 1 interoperability issue”? > >>>>> > >>>>> No. From the dates of the RFCs, it's a "Year 7 interoperability issue". > >>>>> > >>>>>> Do you agree that one way to solve is to allow SLAAC to support longer prefix lengths? > >>>>> > >>>>> That's one way, but it's the wrong way. The right way is for all operators, including mobile operators, to assign /48 or /56 to all > end > >>>>> users. > >>>> > >>>> Isn't that exactly what RFC6177 (BCP157) tells us? Should we be working to > >>>> reaffirm that that BCP still applies today? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Gyan> RFC 6177 - Bottom of the intro it states that no formal recommendation is given. It’s up to the operators to give what > they > >>> feel is best. > >>>> > >>>> This document does not make a formal recommendation on what the exact > >>>> assignment size should be. The exact choice of how much address > >>>> space to assign end sites is an issue for the operational community. > >>>> The IETF's role in this case is limited to providing guidance on IPv6 > >>>> architectural and operational considerations. This document provides > >>>> input into those discussions. The focus of this document is to > >>>> examine the architectural issues and some of the operational > >>>> considerations relating to the size of the end site assignment. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Thanks - Fred > >>>> > >>>>>> Do you agree that this is a major operational issue that needs to be solved? > >>>>> > >>>>> Yes, but as Barbara says, that needs some collaboration with the SDOs and operator fora to get rid of /64 assignments. > >>>>> > >>>>> Brian > >>>>> > >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >>>>> ipv6@ietf.org > >>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> -- > >>>> <image001.jpg> > >>>> > >>>> Gyan Mishra > >>>> Network Solutions Architect > >>>> M 301 502-1347 > >>>> 13101 Columbia Pike > >>>> Silver Spring, MD > >>>> > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >>>> ipv6@ietf.org > >>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Mark Andrews, ISC > >>> 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia > >>> PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org > >> > >
- SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability iss… Gyan Mishra
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Mark Smith
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Philip Homburg
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Gyan Mishra
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Gyan Mishra
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Philip Homburg
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Gyan Mishra
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 i… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 i… Gyan Mishra
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Mark Andrews
- RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 i… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 i… Mark Andrews
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Mark Andrews
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Mark Andrews
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Gyan Mishra
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Mark Andrews
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 i… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 i… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… otroan
- Re: SLAAC, Static & DHCPv6 day 1 interoperability… Templin (US), Fred L