Re: [Lake] Ways forward on MTI cipher suite text

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Tue, 25 January 2022 00:46 UTC

Return-Path: <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
X-Original-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: lake@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3247D3A1A3C for <lake@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 24 Jan 2022 16:46:42 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -7.714
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.714 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.714, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D2XyTeNs3iEj for <lake@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 24 Jan 2022 16:46:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: from EUR05-AM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am6eur05on20709.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:7e1b::709]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45E533A1A3E for <lake@ietf.org>; Mon, 24 Jan 2022 16:46:37 -0800 (PST)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=T26L++pYfiNIrGvLbnG0C4xXWfX6xoJNi+9ud1Kp+bZTjF7XqEqRijzlIbTeHdv/yMvVp6PFHkBX+bd4HHSzMoUdm4iiVdyRSjrcY1T8BUVHrrxAXLHhSvViCLOvKrs6n2nJrkPaiM9V7Axi6THfyFWjQGvn5aR1OYtDXx5KjG/dDHFIg2gOXwpA6k76DQlm8Hg22M7Wh3M5vjm92mS10v6NUbM8i7p6MU3GNsD6QhkGLGxUucEQQRI0PrsqeDHS9dsYbqdmraxv+4XG19Pem675izdy1DxdB+GwmY4GVKLQRXWGYWB/tGbm6U4Ninm+FE32xLQTPexeLKLWzothjQ==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=oNfh2GpAwENAVIAEoKrQMGXhMWiV607V8KEoUgyUV38=; b=F9AKxhHxb3E46XlWfbSAVs62pJOwphl0TeDX6xQIMW2tFY6MIxluxCD/NPp1y89cyXlwwmCEGObt3+kkW59kgYi2X06wWofMKiq7JxtUuiFukc/6MAM9mL+jKul/+aRaxT0iMWzf/pLLPbCWbg20o2PU8Rho1M6eEQ8lb4McSKraPo0au19hoOnPYxQLdnWm/gZAlzXbMa/fUTtVU1WqYrM1dU6rKLjlJJiN7PeJdwzVWhvGzOViklFeToCp09OPGRNndavd9cEoOt6D/kQWr7xkwZGEemaiwT6r54gr9L6r457Pc2ZumCKFD43L+7muhnUZzxyg7DnMdFAwOYbf8Q==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=oNfh2GpAwENAVIAEoKrQMGXhMWiV607V8KEoUgyUV38=; b=XY/fjtVCUSDGlWGw3XS4qr6PIm19MtIDTaYd5CP9iqFxdS4QuDcw4OoUXZjRSdFo+IKXr5xxTCCVGiCdGyMWU+Vzs90ti2thuRmeYmVBIMeo45nf8Np+h2hjX9qNXAbFd+NLUoNK3fQPfrUfPJSgPsYnFADOqfVHZuOxk7VVq87KvBJP4NBdWosk7cOmOCIqYFByezcECOQSxFzsvGbCRjA+PhR4i+hquVUgt7tKVSOUxtYhf8fIV7dkP9lRC9OvO1O83U6dHxEXTwt8CB1ogiZoqK3RnxYU2KKBRQjtZodKl6SoeyySOomax60vYFzdF6fuYN8wVLhAcwUBlifSQg==
Authentication-Results: dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;dmarc=none action=none header.from=cs.tcd.ie;
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15) by AM6PR02MB4405.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:61::20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.4909.17; Tue, 25 Jan 2022 00:46:31 +0000
Received: from DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c193:4428:d0d1:12ae]) by DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c193:4428:d0d1:12ae%6]) with mapi id 15.20.4909.019; Tue, 25 Jan 2022 00:46:31 +0000
Message-ID: <458db3d6-067f-9655-e90d-7ce797101a72@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 00:46:29 +0000
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.3.1
Content-Language: en-US
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "Apple Inc." <goran.selander@ericsson.com>, "lake@ietf.org" <lake@ietf.org>
References: <2A2081E4-BAAF-4292-925E-0B683AA6CD23@inria.fr> <24192.1643036826@localhost> <AM4PR0701MB2195208CA41C14108E5CD85AF45E9@AM4PR0701MB2195.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <14667.1643068411@localhost> <f40de382-a46a-23ec-2228-82ae7d70faf3@cs.tcd.ie> <7156A5F1-E6E8-45B2-9109-B70C1AE32EF8@tzi.org>
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
In-Reply-To: <7156A5F1-E6E8-45B2-9109-B70C1AE32EF8@tzi.org>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha256"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------oxX2SEB8Jr7k5AJYs0a7K8bm"
X-ClientProxiedBy: DB9PR01CA0004.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:10a6:10:1d8::9) To DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:10:77::15)
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1
X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email
X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: aaaabd51-df7d-4496-6f12-08d9df9c2120
X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: AM6PR02MB4405:EE_
X-MS-Exchange-SharedMailbox-RoutingAgent-Processed: True
X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: <AM6PR02MB44058D224CDD56779D76B1B3A85F9@AM6PR02MB4405.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com>
X-TCD-Routed-via-EOP: Routed via EOP
X-TCD-ROUTED: Passed-Transport-Routing-Rules
X-MS-Oob-TLC-OOBClassifiers: OLM:489;
X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0
X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0;
X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: XR8Wl9HHszxlbUybnOQCvIpowbqtl3GwdaZFa/+Ec9H/DdL0YOGq6cbPN1Qb9xY6UrGx0x0FZ+i2+7H12YGS14Bb7HGZLki1sX2Xc4LdtvJLemUSRg7fNQI/mbEqjkAOfaEKYmTH/XrbDJRVsIvwCzDYtf+6KYX42/R2ZS6jVZRZdVGd3os797JCudVnR31lG8lCXuqVz5WqApAG8m5gNvwimmH3aHXdOH8Za5yE3oh9waIixMGDxGdepnOjkrS5LTiY+/Wrt03+Yy/EyHqcATtlTwMUOStahQYTMIdW40a3KsahWvLjWAFjMzDxgCMdJcLx54/16D8NvcdOgZf9JqCD5pPV4u0Ij12I7UBnNdNVmN/RuP37cULWahnN0klls+ka9hwxeRZGz8r0FhgHXzd3OwqawaiZzlTdPfXbhjFj/qloqa828iU4vSnY6P/VbJQ+CoKBEko4D2KL889KiOcnvtrZ522+ZWrmSDNHjVHF8gHOPtW4y1IZDuuZ/enHHE5fa8PXPi7SVVa5Qx+OhVs+LHzWE5OE93vpxBVKmguLaBtfD0Z2mdD3t40nCP0kF2w3YyXx6xEGwVKSiEqXvlGLpQTYL+Ug3Nc+78IV4p3WWHQwUscaXbujaAe1qbqYzwUXcpvbqMF1lhMliTy3Xp+MxIlnN7Wpcjt/OIQqu7oF1zK616te2TswBj8E6A3I7f/EPI7m9kX8Pdq6j05TpRavsYtTWaOoJXpJJgwxlq7EdEliHv0xLsSUHj7Srnbc
X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(4636009)(366004)(6486002)(33964004)(235185007)(83380400001)(786003)(31696002)(54906003)(186003)(5660300002)(31686004)(508600001)(53546011)(2906002)(6506007)(44832011)(21480400003)(45080400002)(8676002)(36756003)(66556008)(8936002)(6512007)(2616005)(6916009)(66476007)(86362001)(38100700002)(316002)(4326008)(66946007)(43740500002)(45980500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102;
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1
X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: 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
X-OriginatorOrg: cs.tcd.ie
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: aaaabd51-df7d-4496-6f12-08d9df9c2120
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DB7PR02MB5113.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jan 2022 00:46:31.4551 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: d595be8d-b306-45f4-8064-9e5b82fbe52b
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: hXFEpHlxnTIC+hxYzE52jxXMkBXX2Sf3CIvzDfC2YRLR6fsZcrlndgHrDWUx7Ixa
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR02MB4405
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lake/OWzbXvhO_WeKw9omBN0Deg6nvqs>
Subject: Re: [Lake] Ways forward on MTI cipher suite text
X-BeenThere: lake@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange <lake.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/lake>, <mailto:lake-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/lake/>
List-Post: <mailto:lake@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:lake-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lake>, <mailto:lake-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2022 00:46:42 -0000

Thanks! Especially for the succinct input - more of that will
help us as chairs try see if there's a rough consensus here.
So I hope others chime in similarly before we meet tomorrow.

S.

On 25/01/2022 00:34, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 25. Jan 2022, at 01:16, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
>>
>> you can't *live with*
> 
> I should probably say that I can’t live with an RFC 6919 “MUST (BUT WE KNOW YOU WON'T)”.
> 
> We need to be realistic in our mandates.
> 
> "At least one out of 0..3" would be realistic.
> 
> (The value of an MTI for a component that goes into other standards before becoming a product is also limited — The MTIs in this case should be in the system standards, not in the component.)
> 
> Grüße, Carsten
>