Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless documents
Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> Fri, 07 July 2017 04:01 UTC
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 21:01:43 -0700
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To: Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>
Cc: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com>, "lime@ietf.org" <lime@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless documents
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Hi Qin, I've to point that this is not "new" proposal but rather proposal editors of the document, apparently, disregarded. Regards, Greg On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 8:58 PM, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> wrote: > I am not criticizing the limitation of two proposals discussed below. My > augment is two proposals have been well investigated and compared, the > current proposal we took in this draft is good enough based on the below > analysis. > > > > If you have better proposal, I am happy to hear. But I am surprised you > again have your late comment since the draft has been shipped. > > > > -Qin > > *发件人:* Greg Mirsky [mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com] > *发送时间:* 2017年7月6日 23:35 > *收件人:* Qin Wu > *抄送:* Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); Benoit Claise (bclaise); lime@ietf.org > *主题:* Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless documents > > > > Hi Qin, > > thank you for your consideration of my comment and sharing your arguments. > Indeed, I don't think that model that have only Self, Server and Client > layers can present some scenarios of multi-layer OAM application in > networks. And merely increasing that number to 8 or 16 layers, in my > opinion, would not be much better. In YANG terms I view OAM layers, as well > as their corresponding network layers, as entries on a list. The entries > are indexed and the index provides the key. Entries of the OAM list, > obviously, can represent connection-oriented or connectionless OAM. > > Perhaps we can have side discussion in Prague. I'll try to prepare mode > detailed comments to both documents before then (the last two weeks before > the meeting are super-busy as always). > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 8:33 PM, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> wrote: > > I think what Greg commented earlier is to make clarity on the definition > of server layer, client layer, he didn’t point out the limitation of using > level under oam-layer. > > Maybe the train has leave the station. J > > > > I think the debate is whether we use absolute relationship between tests > points at different layer or use relative relationship between test points > at different layer. > > If we describe the relative relationship between test points using server > layer, client layer and the same layer, I think we should make assumption > that we know the order of the test points from source to destination, > otherwise how to set level if we have more than 3 testpoints at different > layer or level. I think index may implicitly indicate the order of these > test points. > > If we describe the absolute relationship between test points using (-8,8), > or (-7,7), we also make assumption for the same protocol layer, we can not > breakdown into several sub-layers. It is the downside of using absolute > relationship. > > Looks like both proposals have limitation, if we really want to tweak > proposal, we may consider > > a) we add a protocol layer under oam-layer to stand for absolute > stack layer. But technology under test-point-locations may have already > indicated this. > > b) We expand the number of levels more than 8, e.g.,let’s say 16 > > > > -Qin > > *发件人:* Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] *代表 *Carlos Pignataro > (cpignata) > *发送时间:* 2017年7月4日 3:43 > *收件人:* Greg Mirsky > *抄送:* Benoit Claise (bclaise); lime@ietf.org > *主题:* Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless documents > > > > Hello, Greg, > > > > The WG held real-time editathon interims in which we went comment by > comment, many of those from you: https://datatracker.ietf. > org/meeting/past#lime > > > > After that, the editors have been diligently working through all the > comments received, including all of yours (from WGLC and from before). > There have been several iterations of document revision as all those > comments were addressed and edits incorporated. As I had mentioned, > addressing a comment does not necessarily imply changing the document — it > can mean reply explaining why not. > > > > I think that when you say “I've learned that my comments not taken into > consideration” you are mischaracterizing the story. I witnessed the authors > considering and discussing your comments, time and again. And when you > further add “no one asked my opinion about the changes that went into the > current version”, the editors asked the WG as a whole about the changes, we > discussed them in person and in interims, and the process announces new > revisions on list for interested parties to comment. > > > > That said, and most importantly, if you feel you still have technical > comments or unaddressed concerns on the current versions, I’d urge you to > share those with clarity on the list. The editors and WG as a whole can > review them and reply. There is no need to wait, the sooner things are > addressed the better. > > > > The goal of the WG is to produce quality and timely documents. > > > > Thanks, > > > > — Carlos. > > > > On Jun 29, 2017, at 1:28 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hi Carlos, > > WGLC from January 2017? Considering that last time I've shared comments > with authors at the meeting in Chicago, I'd consider that that WGLC had > failed to clear the bar. But if WG chairs and AD believe differently, then > the drafts were in the WG LC for five months. > > > > As I've mentioned, I've shared my comments at the meetings, on the list > and conference calls. Regrettably, I've learned that my comments not taken > into consideration and too many misconceptions stayed in the documents from > one version to another after I've pointed them out. I consider it > professional courtesy to reach directly to reviewers to confirm that > proposed changes address their concerns. Sadly, no one asked my opinion > about the changes that went into the current version. > > > > As I was not given time to review the latest version I took rather quick > look at the connectionless OAM document and found the following: > > The level in 'oam-layers' indicate whether related OAM test point is > > The level in oam-layers indicate whether related oam test point is in > > client layer(lower layer described in section 3.3 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lime-yang-connectionless-oam-07#section-3.3>), server layer > > (upper layer described in section 3.3 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lime-yang-connectionless-oam-07#section-3.3>) or the same layer as the > > current test point under Test point Locations. > > I'm having hard time parsing this text and hope you can explain as you seem to be fine with it. And when I've followed on the reference to section 3.3 > > I've found that what I've commented on, suggested to change and authors verbally agreed to do still in place - {-1, 0, 1} model to indicate server-client layers. > > But, as I've pointed many times, relationships between Test Points on different layers may be more complex and may skip some layers (Ethernet OAM with its 8 layers > > in MEG may be one example). For the Test Points on the given OAM layer, notifications may be coming from different OAM layers down below. Current model, > > as I read the text, does not allow such scenario. > > > > But since I'm the only one who is, and frankly, has been commenting on these drafts throughout the time of the WG, I'll prepare thorough comments for the IETF LC. > > > > I had privilege working and observing work of all authors and learned from them a lot, got to respect their professionalism. Cannot understand what happened this time. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < > cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > > Greg, > > > > I am astonished at your statement. > > > > WGLCs: > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/hcOi85Eu3dquUJZwWvx3BW_ZGbE > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/4fRb9w-S9Z01x3CCRty7x8uhdmw > > > > Your comments to the WGLCs: > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/Bx6A0eqPRT4qXU8e_caXm4EElQA > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/8_O41P0U4yy2zNfeX4jwxSZk6oU > > > > After that the authors worked with you to incorporate your comments. > Subsequent revisions prompted more comments from you, all of which were > appropriately disposed of: > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/x_ljuI0fvvNn2TSwj1BqXO6vgVo > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/nQGL4cgWSaCWpNXiLnvgt_OqbSk > > > > After that, the chairs gave you additional time and provided specific > review to subsequent comments: > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/oY44xRj9wm6aiqALdyRLuQ3j1BQ > > > > A disposition to a comment means that they could have resulted in a > change, or not. > > > > IPR call coincinging with Adoption call: > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/lime/1ojMMWgjloC3FsE3Hp9E2JN2u00 > > > > I hope that clarifies? > > > > Thanks, > > > > — Carlos. > > > > On Jun 28, 2017, at 4:47 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hi Carlos and Ron, > > thank you for the update on these drafts. I haven't seen IPR poll, WGLC on > any of these. Have I missed them? I do have comments I'd like to share. Or > should I wait for the IETF LC? > > > > Regards, Greg > > > > On Jun 28, 2017 1:27 PM, "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com> > wrote: > > Dear WG, > > > > We will be progressing the LIME Connectionless documents, submitting them > to our AD. > > > > Please see the respective write-ups at: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lime-yang-connectionless-oam/ > shepherdwriteup/ > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lime-yang- > connectionless-oam-methods/shepherdwriteup/ > > > > Thanks, > > > > Carlos & Ron. > > > _______________________________________________ > Lime mailing list > Lime@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lime > > > > > > > > — > > Carlos Pignataro, carlos@cisco.com > > *“Sometimes I use big words that I do not fully understand, to make myself > sound more photosynthesis."* > > > > >
- [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless documents Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Qin Wu
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Qin Wu
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Qin Wu
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Qin Wu
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Srihari Raghavan (srihari)
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Lime] Progress on LIME Connectionless docume… Srihari Raghavan (srihari)