Re: [Model-t] model-t@iab.org list description

Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> Sat, 03 August 2019 18:09 UTC

Return-Path: <huitema@huitema.net>
X-Original-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: model-t@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4913E1200CC for <model-t@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 11:09:43 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.6
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7UwIth5hQW4H for <model-t@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 11:09:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F1D512000E for <model-t@iab.org>; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 11:09:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from xse12.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.12] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx148.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from <huitema@huitema.net>) id 1htyTJ-000Ba5-1B for model-t@iab.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 20:09:38 +0200
Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 461BrH3qNszLwN for <model-t@iab.org>; Sat, 3 Aug 2019 11:09:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [10.5.2.49] (helo=xmail11.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <huitema@huitema.net>) id 1htyTH-0001G6-DV for model-t@iab.org; Sat, 03 Aug 2019 11:09:35 -0700
Received: (qmail 25030 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2019 18:09:34 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.103]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.56.38.95]) (envelope-sender <huitema@huitema.net>) by xmail11.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for <model-t@iab.org>; 3 Aug 2019 18:09:34 -0000
To: model-t@iab.org
References: <c3a112ba-baab-1cb0-97ad-21ff9999a637@cs.tcd.ie> <29756028-95f1-e6e5-b3ea-562cbc635df0@sandelman.ca> <5ef15ad2-5b20-e871-0d01-17cf906051c1@cs.tcd.ie> <22633.1564768705@localhost> <e7c02d44-353f-406c-818e-06a2e49ee212@www.fastmail.com> <5879878A-7CEA-4030-BB72-108CC4122719@gmail.com> <d253231a-d35d-e7c9-e3ae-5c7d7915566e@bluepopcorn.net> <06F0AE14-4413-4022-A804-C1B58E2702CE@fugue.com> <52BAC141-CB25-4072-B556-6325912F1ADD@gmail.com> <9a1555ca-6699-75f1-683e-2a3a2a539a11@cs.tcd.ie>
From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Openpgp: preference=signencrypt
Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFIRX8gBCAC26usy/Ya38IqaLBSu33vKD6hP5Yw390XsWLaAZTeQR64OJEkoOdXpvcOS HWfMIlD5s5+oHfLe8jjmErFAXYJ8yytPj1fD2OdSKAe1TccUBiOXT8wdVxSr5d0alExVv/LO I/vA2aU1TwOkVHKSapD7j8/HZBrqIWRrXUSj2f5n9tY2nJzG9KRzSG0giaJWBfUFiGb4lvsy IaCaIU0YpfkDDk6PtK5YYzuCeF0B+O7N9LhDu/foUUc4MNq4K3EKDPb2FL1Hrv0XHpkXeMRZ olpH8SUFUJbmi+zYRuUgcXgMZRmZFL1tu6z9h6gY4/KPyF9aYot6zG28Qk/BFQRtj7V1ABEB AAG0J0NocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIDxodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0PokBOQQTAQIAIwUC UhFfyAIbLwcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEJNDCbJVyA1yhbYH/1ud6x6m VqGIp0JcZUfSQO8w+TjugqxCyGNn+w/6Qb5O/xENxNQ4HaMQ5uSRK9n8WKKDDRSzwZ4syKKf wbkfj05vgFxrjCynVbm1zs2X2aGXh+PxPL/WHUaxzEP7KjYbLtCUZDRzOOrm+0LMktngT/k3 6+EZoLEM52hwwpIAzJoscyEz7QfqMOZtFm6xQnlvDQeIrHx0KUvwo/vgDLK3SuruG1CSHcR0 D24kEEUa044AIUKBS3b0b8AR7f6mP2NcnLpdsibtpabi9BzqAidcY/EjTaoea46HXALk/eJd 6OLkLE6UQe1PPzQC4jB7rErX2BxnSkHDw50xMgLRcl5/b1a5AQ0EUhFfyAEIAKp7Cp8lqKTV CC9QiAf6QTIjW+lie5J44Ad++0k8gRgANZVWubQuCQ71gxDWLtxYfFkEXjG4TXV/MUtnOliG 5rc2E+ih6Dg61Y5PQakm9OwPIsOx+2R+iSW325ngln2UQrVPgloO83QiUoi7mBJPbcHlxkhZ bd3+EjFxSLIQogt29sTcg2oSh4oljUpz5niTt69IOfZx21kf29NfDE+Iw56gfrxI2ywZbu5o G+d0ZSp0lsovygpk4jK04fDTq0vxjEU5HjPcsXC4CSZdq5E2DrF4nOh1UHkHzeaXdYR2Bn1Y wTePfaHBFlvQzI+Li/Q6AD/uxbTM0vIcsUxrv3MNHCUAEQEAAYkCPgQYAQIACQUCUhFfyAIb LgEpCRCTQwmyVcgNcsBdIAQZAQIABgUCUhFfyAAKCRC22tOSFDh1UOlBB/94RsCJepNvmi/c YiNmMnm0mKb6vjv43OsHkqrrCqJSfo95KHyl5Up4JEp8tiJMyYT2mp4IsirZHxz/5lqkw9Az tcGAF3GlFsj++xTyD07DXlNeddwTKlqPRi/b8sppjtWur6Pm+wnAHp0mQ7GidhxHccFCl65w uT7S/ocb1MjrTgnAMiz+x87d48n1UJ7yIdI41Wpg2XFZiA9xPBiDuuoPwFj14/nK0elV5Dvq 4/HVgfurb4+fd74PV/CC/dmd7hg0ZRlgnB5rFUcFO7ywb7/TvICIIaLWcI42OJDSZjZ/MAzz BeXm263lHh+kFxkh2LxEHnQGHCHGpTYyi4Z3dv03HtkH/1SI8joQMQq00Bv+RdEbJXfEExrT u4gtdZAihwvy97OPA2nCdTAHm/phkzryMeOaOztI4PS8u2Ce5lUB6P/HcGtK/038KdX5MYST Fn8KUDt4o29bkv0CUXwDzS3oTzPNtGdryBkRMc9b+yn9+AdwFEH4auhiTQXPMnl0+G3nhKr7 jvzVFJCRif3OAhEm4vmBNDE3uuaXFQnbK56GJrnqVN+KX5Z3M7X3fA8UcVCGOEHXRP/aubiw Ngawj0V9x+43kUapFp+nF69R53UI65YtJ95ec4PTO/Edvap8h1UbdEOc4+TiYwY1TBuIKltY 1cnrjgAWUh/Ucvr++/KbD9tD6C8=
Message-ID: <fbb6866d-87af-abea-42b4-8bb45959ea6a@huitema.net>
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 11:09:24 -0700
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <9a1555ca-6699-75f1-683e-2a3a2a539a11@cs.tcd.ie>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha256"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="qlKiBiEFFN9pZXdRRTpiWXcD0pkxSVQ3t"
X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.12
X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com
X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.12/32
Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.12/32@xsmtpout.mail2web.com
X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure
X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15)
X-Recommended-Action: accept
X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0QR3kh8pms4IGrDTloUGIkypSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVUZbR67CQ7/vm /hHDJU4RXkTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDXz6Yli32IJdAuJ3ivsC2SsRX qYbtEQV1z/L435ZRxFQYGEBex4xvrDCGx9/CRLGb+rYZvu7UEJiU3s27VgKHO7lwS3dBJTnTxDoD vBGGxph9w6EwXICYy0ePXtGEMhqr71Ctji2Jm4KHS7y6WgIpZGU6UgOqKJ9sMwhVoOBGSAIboXtx P9OF0EfNs5TqNq2Yhy7LI0kfFnXdPP6btp4oBeJDeKRq5oPj2hFJhLx+qI3HlR3ootg7OlA3N5WN re/oppAGOX5cHTu1yz4pRT/9FGrxEaaKeSxe0Wrx6M4G5/WoLsdfEoJI0BNUQ4KpaNyNCwGqOUcw rXf55E8Tb8bmXq4yH8StrboPphDtmrtUkwlUgiZZ2raUFFZA8s/fhxGt7T02ZXdoQxMs//iOE4Fl hiCv9TR+UxzLZWL8hwGBjhoI3W+YcuHfP5PkZb5A+wE5qGdpH54Oa3V8I76VOEvlwB+XPdEXquZ7 t0MUOMrNUB28QUflW+Svi9R9/h0R/hHk80gEBvC375bdrqwD5XSigeSAj8K+OnrlRBfcjCWkZw8k 6Q9V9YO5wBS5yaTKclLkYt9oyTxckHDP0NcX9864ehg66gs5OuzYxJgw5atIxePaw4mGPOB1lCDk b7ANR1sPe34TY+s3lj/RgDQoaICKQ8o3vnim0hzLBdJch5K54ySToCIVlrsWUzNuPt49AmrqHHAS JNUmoOHSoqgqxfHmWfZIwxxhwvMcWh0MGcvUtQghrAWWnPLLeJH472QYeD4b1vEjHyvS2QZiR+AZ YvfxEvZFKu+ZM2mB1CpThxyaBpbeNHk15VolAGHS5rCXQKDyCQUljhSWDhWh87HBSLhNUo4qiB0X MVQG2R7iUfOzATaF5R3hQJk8CwyURYKQ0Ye0iR3bHfnMCIEU+nrglojKwJanfcoq9IsR6l/OZb9V MEM=
X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine9.antispamcloud.com
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/model-t/Ug2UHIugFtr_bWqgh2ZUcn1q74s>
Subject: Re: [Model-t] model-t@iab.org list description
X-BeenThere: model-t@iab.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Discussions of changes in Internet deployment patterns and their impact on the Internet threat model <model-t.iab.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/options/model-t>, <mailto:model-t-request@iab.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/model-t/>
List-Post: <mailto:model-t@iab.org>
List-Help: <mailto:model-t-request@iab.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/model-t>, <mailto:model-t-request@iab.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 18:09:43 -0000

On 8/3/2019 10:47 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote:
> Hiya,
>
> On 03/08/2019 18:39, Bret Jordan wrote:
>> This is not jargon, this is the language that is used in this space.
> I agree that these kinds of information model based approaches
> are fairly widely used by those dealing with specific incidents
> and products/services that in some way deal with specific incidents.
>
> But it's less clear if or how those approaches apply at protocol
> design time, which is what's more relevant here. I think the
> applicability may be even less clear for protocols that are used
> in widely different contexts. It's also unclear (to me anyway)
> how or if privacy issues could be addressed with such approaches

Reading this thread, I think that we are missing a step. We cannot
define attacks without defining first the assets that need to be
protected. Different actors probably have different views on that, such as:

1) Continuous operation of the Internet

2) Continuous operation of a specific Internet provider

3) Continuous availability of an Internet Service

4) Continuous connectivity for a given user

5) Protection of databases used by services and enterprises

6) Protection of the personal data of users

Do we have agreement on what we are trying to protect?

-- Christian Huitema