Re: [Multiformats] Multiformats Considered Harmful

Robin Berjon <robin@berjon.com> Fri, 08 September 2023 09:41 UTC

Return-Path: <robin@berjon.com>
X-Original-To: multiformats@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: multiformats@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2A0C14CE5E for <multiformats@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 8 Sep 2023 02:41:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.696
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.696 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.091, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uZDuTFD2y1jh for <multiformats@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 8 Sep 2023 02:41:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E02EC14CE46 for <multiformats@ietf.org>; Fri, 8 Sep 2023 02:41:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4F2320047A; Fri, 8 Sep 2023 05:41:47 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 08 Sep 2023 05:41:48 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t= 1694166107; x=1694252507; bh=vY78lwAqjpvK1w+gvAlWccd/yWIHrawxXlY SUFDgxO4=; b=SAVjt/E9LInlWHwWhkx0dJibP67FymsEwNj9ZzSYlcF9139UUe+ AoCRhHcfjsG9CV+OAtxD6OcexmJYx18EGKrTdsSFsa3gtjefQWsTHSv2WOu26gSB tavPdfLhqYQof0yJah8e7tGfzwE2Qd47GVoBqmPLe8qU9htEQR5+VN21a3FRdnBi DKYcPSd3+0iUwCCNEY0VwmOlylAeArz92j4STCrhe/PiRjfn/oP1jZJ2yDS0weCG 3hZ1so3MWXwx3EeXotfuOfyP4FZye/231loMmvBBdZtDONIDnl+LPvQ+OYKfCrD9 gwfv7zpHP12AFWzMySMkxn4FzKb+nkpoJ+g==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:Wuz6ZAEhIXJ0_0gaUYJ7If9BVOvGQscNev_BcQlJtjtAcJ4LNCQrXw> <xme:Wuz6ZJUPpO7B2s2biiJuDWdiqsYDQPedj3lDTSEjQXOkafMC9O3LVztm0nMQYCgXV dqQXAIG3DkpOA>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:Wuz6ZKLYlox7q7nNJa4Wz7Z-0K0Eo70lUg0ytSWYdp-huT3s9zqPx_edYUGny9MTpAThnO8Yoxj8EnfE7djvjvtxRHqTp5grjopgeAO5qLIrjIQvvKKh>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedviedrudehjedgudejucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepkfffgggfuffvvehfhfgjtgfgsehtkeertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpeftohgs ihhnuceuvghrjhhonhcuoehrohgsihhnsegsvghrjhhonhdrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrth htvghrnhepieeitdevfeetudehleeiudevvdfghfekffefkefhffejhfekkeffvefhvdff ueefnecuffhomhgrihhnpeiffedrohhrghdpsggvrhhjohhnrdgtohhmpdhmrghsthhoug honhdrshhotghirghlnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghi lhhfrhhomheprhhosghinhessggvrhhjohhnrdgtohhm
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:Wuz6ZCE1F9kHvM7BAgI_xV08BTrR4miTHhwL305zHCTqorylBhn1-A> <xmx:Wuz6ZGUJTR3O4B-yFmY3j5w7M8JMu9Gsm-hb07qyQmUSTn_deBmCzQ> <xmx:Wuz6ZFNaQHD_pDqp4PCe5vpx82qUzwsO2CLciY8tw_i-nQzeBlSwfQ> <xmx:W-z6ZPO-zLwzUN-MWqgYDEarC_i7V84Zo_h7TF65Pw108oyNLHKOtA>
Feedback-ID: i38c44178:Fastmail
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Fri, 8 Sep 2023 05:41:45 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <b8144e60-9aee-01fd-ac9b-06d417d91927@berjon.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 05:41:45 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.15.0
Content-Language: en-GB
To: Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>
Cc: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>, Michael Jones <michael_b_jones@hotmail.com>, Orie Steele <orie@transmute.industries>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, "multiformats@ietf.org" <multiformats@ietf.org>, Murray Kucherawy <superuser@gmail.com>, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>, Francesca Palombini <francesca.palombini@ericsson.com>, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, Paul Wouters <paul.wouters@aiven.io>, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
References: <F814189D-031F-4CED-AC9A-F6049D010632@tzi.org> <81D17EDC-723D-4977-AA82-6164DDB5B431@tzi.org> <CAN8C-_LpYSimtHTn0nE7HN13iJ8FyxchaDm4G1mTX97MhYf=bw@mail.gmail.com> <MW4PR02MB7428BE7784A204FC9F945685B7EFA@MW4PR02MB7428.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <CAL02cgSyS9AuVde_HYyP2Dghq6ZnVpVnis6egR8CTf24b4h37w@mail.gmail.com> <76fbb098-96eb-f93f-bb90-5a95791ef000@berjon.com> <CAKaEYhK+4OaBZVEUfiC5f-pTT7SLpQ9rFU4T2tMMhN708MaC_Q@mail.gmail.com> <246f083e-9732-344e-1150-bce016b8028b@berjon.com> <CAKaEYhLPpJuBqyejLmwd-gh1MCTygjpWwC7o7CTCHLOQ=pP1Rw@mail.gmail.com> <d384d2a6-b9ce-65c8-d913-912a2c148886@berjon.com> <CAKaEYhJcrPxGh0ktBCNYWuvxngwAOmSTnqb8jfZoWr4oRux75Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Robin Berjon <robin@berjon.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAKaEYhJcrPxGh0ktBCNYWuvxngwAOmSTnqb8jfZoWr4oRux75Q@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/multiformats/pH0l_ZdssL_oW_XWANZyvdEpIzs>
Subject: Re: [Multiformats] Multiformats Considered Harmful
X-BeenThere: multiformats@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.39
Precedence: list
List-Id: Discussion related to the various Multiformats data formats <multiformats.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/multiformats>, <mailto:multiformats-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/multiformats/>
List-Post: <mailto:multiformats@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:multiformats-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multiformats>, <mailto:multiformats-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 09:41:56 -0000

Dear Melvin,

On 08/09/2023 04:45, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
> While I understand and respect the distinctions you're emphasizing, it's 
> evident from the aforementioned statements that there's a recognized 
> connection and relevance between IPFS, Filecoin, and blockchain-related 
> efforts. I believe this context is essential in our discussions, and it 
> would be beneficial for us to acknowledge these ties while also 
> understanding the unique characteristics of each project.
> 
> I trust this sheds light on the context I'm referencing. To ensure 
> productive discussions, I'd suggest we remain focused on the primary 
> topics and avoid reiterating points. Appreciate your understanding.

I appreciate that you have a profound dislike for blockchain, a point 
which you have already made at length when you asked the W3C TAG to 
somehow ban the use of the term "web3"[0], though the community did not 
agree.[1][2][3]

That's an entirely respectable position. What I don't understand is why 
drag it into everything? Both IPFS and blockchains exist in the (vast) 
design space explored by the (many) people who are interested in 
decentralisation. If you want to keep listing tenuous, anecdotal links 
between the two based on that alone, you could do it all day — yet it 
would neither be relevant to this discussion nor change the fact that 
the two are entirely unrelated except perhaps by happenstance.

Seeing as IPFS, and more specifically its ecosystem, is actually my day 
job, if IPFS were somehow tied to blockchains I think that I would have 
had occasion to notice.

I won't address the point further. Richard made an honest mistake, I 
provided a simple factual correction, I think we can move on and focus 
on the matter at hand. I wish you the best of luck on your personal 
crusade but I don't think that repeated attempts to taint by imaginary 
association are helping us reach enlightened conclusions.


[0] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2023Jul/0000.html
[1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2023Jul/0001.html
[2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2023Jul/0002.html
[3] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2023Jul/0009.html

-- 
Robin Berjon (he/him)
Governance & Standards at Protocol Labs
https://berjon.com/ - https://mastodon.social/@robin