Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci

Dear All,

Naming, routing, security, network management, meeting the future needs and
else mentioned in the "RFC 3868 IAB Concerns and Recommendations Regarding
with Internet Research and Evolution sec. 3 (2004)" were open research
topics. While "RFC 1958 Architectural Principles of the Internet (1996)
regarded  that the Internet Architecture was about the Internet
architecture and internetworking layer for connectivity...:  What are those
between the two RFCs...? Would it be other chapters of a reading...?

https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3869
(A link address I missed to attach to the right previous message to these
mailing lists)

Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Sabtu, 27 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:

> Dear All,
>
> As we came with other readings, then we met the one, or the ones, having
> similarities but also difference with the previous ones --which may be a
> problem of designing such a reading, that accumulating readings and
> relating with real-time communications such as these mailing lists and thus
> relating with such a track of reading:
>
> Here we met "RFC 3869  IAB Concerns Regarding with Internet Research and
> Evolution" (Atkinson R. & S. Floyd eds, Network Working Group-IAB, 2004)
> --one that was with certain degree of seriousness, to say that it had an
> institutionalized standard of the Internet Architecture Board.
>
> The document was concerned with history and about the Internet research
> funding (section 2) but there a list of open research topics (section 3)
> ranging from naming, routing, security, networks management, meeting the
> future needs and else.
>
> Another we may say about this document is a matter of the Internet
> Governance as it explicitly mentioned about a non-ownership of the global
> Internet infrastructure by a single organization affecting funding
> considerations (section 1.2) --we may say that the Internet Governance is
> about management of tge Internet affairs such asresearch activities...
>
> Here we may compare it to what B. Carpenter said in "RFC 1958
> Architectural Principles of the Internet" that nobody owns the Internet
> (section 2.4).
>
>
> Regard,
> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Giorgio and All,
>
> Forgive me if I do not understand your message: of I did not miss it came
> to me as a record of the talks under the same title: "The Internet,
> Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Special
> Reading": which are since the first sent by me until the last sent by Joe
> Abley
>
> Was there things I missed...?
>
>
> Regard,
> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>
> Pada Jumat, 26 April 2019, <giorgio.simeoli@libero.it> menulis:
>
>>
>> Il 25 aprile 2019 alle 10.40 Hesham ElBakoury <
>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> ha scritto:
>>
>> I actually have the same question ...
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM
>> To: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
>> Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>;
>> internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-discuss@ietf.org;
>> nethistory@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance,
>> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci
>>
>> Guntur,
>>
>> I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and
>> more confused. Yes, there are some broad principles that can be considered
>> together to constitute an "Internet architecture". Once one gets past
>> extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt that there is
>> strong consensus in the community about many of the details of that
>> architecture:
>> there are other documents with different theories and some people would
>> claim that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you
>> have cited have not stood the test of time.
>> Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; many,
>> including questions about who should be in charge of various resources once
>> one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually need
>> to be, do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for
>> discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to
>> internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list,
>> has yet to be made.
>>
>> But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each
>> posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and
>> what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, the
>> readers of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such
>> readers know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But
>> almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the
>> existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic
>> together with the existence and availability of the lists.
>>
>> Do you want something? Do you intend to try to explain something to us
>> that we don't know already? If so, is that explanation likely to be
>> actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how. And, of course, what is it?
>>
>> thanks,
>> john
>>
>> --On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra <
>> gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their
>> designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible
>> inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a
>> matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever
>> officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with
>> the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013)
>>
>> "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governance
>> and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues
>> relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU
>> Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future
>> of the Internet architecture".
>>
>> https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/
>>
>> Regard,
>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>
>> Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
>> menulis:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP
>> service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2.1
>> of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other
>> RFCs.
>>
>> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the
>> Internet architecture examplified by
>>
>> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End
>> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture"
>> (Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004)
>>
>> This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as it
>> had been applied by the Internet over years.
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274
>>
>> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D.
>> et all., Network Working Group, 1991)
>>
>> This document represented an understanding that the Internet
>> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite"
>> envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing signs
>> of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from the
>> continued growth of the Internet.
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287
>>
>> Regard,
>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>
>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
>> menulis:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical
>> Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective
>> individuals, are in an age of the
>> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and
>> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of
>> reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix
>> Guattari.
>>
>> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased
>> to visit these links below
>>
>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8
>>
>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0
>>
>> Regard,
>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>
>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
>> menulis:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are
>> historians for the services of historical archives the provide.
>> While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on
>> the "Internet
>> Architecture":
>>
>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as
>> they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an
>> implementers were also suggested...
>>
>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011)
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250
>>
>> Regard,
>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>
>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
>> menulis:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture"
>> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message
>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet
>> Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those
>> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet
>> Protocol" they have...
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
>>
>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol
>> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use
>> terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control
>> Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet
>> Datagrams"...
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards
>>
>> Regard,
>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>
>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to
>> Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message
>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791:
>> Internet Protocol" (J.
>> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and
>> updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they
>> have....
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
>>
>> Regard,
>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>
>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
>>
>> Dear Hesham and All,
>>
>> There is a need for correction for the earlier message:
>>
>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter
>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in
>> large scale...
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt
>>
>> It should be:
>>
>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first
>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in
>> large scale...
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt
>>
>> Regard,
>> Gintur Wiseno Putra
>>
>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
>>
>> Dear Hesham and All,
>>
>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet"
>> (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in
>> relation with the Internet in large scale...
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt
>>
>> Regard,
>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>
>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <
>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis:
>>
>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439.
>>
>> Hesham
>>
>> *From:* Architecture-discuss
>> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>> *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM
>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org;
>> nethistory@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance,
>> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?"
>> mentioned in the earlier message:
>>
>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles
>> of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their
>> design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related
>> archives ( as the text did not use any online source but
>> suppposedly paper ones as references)...:
>>
>>    - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name=
>>
>>
>>    - https://www.rfc-editor.org/
>>
>> Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official
>> Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search".
>>
>> Regard,
>>
>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>
>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of
>> the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and
>> sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just
>> eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the
>> Internet..
>>
>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet
>> Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and
>> "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists.
>> How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such
>> a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts
>> have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we
>> imagine about information sources by making such a readership
>> based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say
>> about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical
>> Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The
>> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...?
>> --there would be a discourse map on the special readership
>> which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may
>> use search engines of each mailing list for related
>> interests...?
>>
>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with
>> such tentative journeys considering parts of the special
>> readership...?
>>
>> For example:
>>
>> By considering the reasoning above:
>>
>> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may
>> refer to (archival) sources
>>
>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet"
>>
>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)
>>
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958
>>
>> (Note:)
>>
>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet
>> Achitecture intended for general guidance and general
>> interest...
>>
>> It was updated by RFC 3439...
>>
>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC
>> 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant
>> sources... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to
>> broader or other conceptual discourses on "governance and
>> technical work"
>>
>> Regard,
>>
>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Architecture-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/architecture-discuss
>>
>>