Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt
"Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com> Mon, 11 April 2022 17:44 UTC
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Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2022 13:43:56 -0400
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To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "lsr@ietf.org" <lsr@ietf.org>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
References: <164662287026.10186.17661147788695088858@ietfa.amsl.com> <AM7PR07MB62483353E387A0538EDA44C6A0E59@AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <AM7PR07MB6248D0B4D19EF3168DEC4864A0E59@AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <978D3500-5A9C-49FA-A259-B4E234CC9332@cisco.com> <AM7PR07MB6248CE4BDC0B27008D4F04BCA0E59@AM7PR07MB6248.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <2C00E058-F836-415E-A357-797E01FE77AD@cisco.com> <DB7E3112-3C2F-4040-81E1-F4625689DA62@chopps.org> <645FCC0B-8279-4070-B052-A553317B8474@cisco.com> <3F7DDA02-DEFA-4680-B048-1AB0A54C2FA1@chopps.org> <BB1D53D0-0D36-40DF-8B9D-4BD4EB6A35C1@cisco.com> <5b05a34d-41b6-7b65-ebe7-9dcaca80eeb2@alumni.stanford.edu> <m2wnfzydgz.fsf@ja.int.chopps.org> <530e30e1-9436-2123-7d03-eb4f876a9f90@alumni.stanford.edu> <BY5PR11MB4196F5F342BA12E79FF29B08B5EA9@BY5PR11MB4196.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <CABCOCHS+uLjK5GcpCrmegCWBHoK=1-ySZhqO+D-TEnyGUki5kQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/L451hwwvnNnHQNUHKJDxifAcyyU>
Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt
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Do we have reason to believe that no one outside the IETF has used ip-address as we published in ways that need a zone? It seems to me that the first step in the plan below is reasonable. But changing ip-address itself seems a bad idea. If one means no-zone, use the -no-zone typedef. Yours, Joel On 4/11/2022 1:28 PM, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 10:07 AM Rob Wilton (rwilton) > <rwilton=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> > wrote: > > Hi all, > > Thanks for the comments on this thread so far. It would be nice if > we are able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution. > > I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and > the v4/v6 versions) are badly named as the prominent default type > name has been given to the unusual variant of including zone > information. > > Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me > that most of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be > wrong, and the intention was that IP addresses without zones was > intended. At a rough count, of the published RFC YANG models at > github YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be: > 86 uses of ip-address > 68 uses of ipv4-address > 66 uses of ipv6-address > > 1 use of ip-address-no-zone > 4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone > 4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone > > These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in > RFCs. At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules > may appear in 40-50 RFCs. > > As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the > OpenConfig YANG modules: > They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone > information and have defined separate types include zone information. > There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP > addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository. However, > approximately a third of the IP address types are still to the > ietf-inet-types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in > theory some of those 58 entries could still intentionally be > supporting zoned IP addresses, but I would expect that the vast > majority would not. > I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the > same way in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks > have got the definition right. > > I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address > definition is effectively optional, and implementations are not > really obliged to implement it. I don't find that argument > compelling, at least not with the current definition of ip-address > in RFC 6991. I see a clear difference between a type defined with > an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid values and a type > that is explicitly defined to included additional values in the > allowable value space. Further, I believe that a client just > looking at the YANG module could reasonably expect a server that > implements a data node using ip-address would be expected to support > IP zones, where they are meaningful, or otherwise they should > deviate that data node to indicate that they don't conform to the model. > > We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do. > They are not going to start writing code to support zones just > because they are in the model. They will mostly reject IP addresses > with zone information. Perhaps some will deviate the type to > ip-address-no-zone, but probably most won't. > > The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel > at all appealing. This would take a significant amount of > time/effort and I think that we will struggle to find folks who are > willing to do this. Although errata could be used to point out the > bug, then can't be used to fix it, all the errata would be "hold for > document update" at best. Further, during the time that it would > take us to fix it, it is plausible that more incorrect usages of > ip-address will likely occur (but perhaps could be policed via > scripted checks/warnings). > > > I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state > where the "ip-address" type means what 99% of people expect it to > mean, i.e., excluding zone information. > > Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible > change to the new definition, I want to ask whether the following > might be a possible path that gains wider consensus: > > (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we: > (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) > and keep the -no-zone versions. > (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate: > - Although the type allows for zone information, many > implementations are unlikely to accept zone information in most > scenarios (i.e., so the description of the type more accurately > reflects reality). > - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where > zoned IP addresses are required/useful, and models that use > ip-address with the intention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST > migrate to ip-address-with-zone. > - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), > the expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to > match that of ip-address-no-zone. > > (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the > definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate > the "-no-zone" version at the same time. > > My reasoning as to why to take this path is: > (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time > to migrate. > (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that > it aligns to the OC definition). > (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs. > (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an > NBC change, along with the other standards to help mitigate this > change (import revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison). > > I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable > consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live > with it. > > > > This is a very thoughtful proposal. Looks good to me. > > It does introduce a window in which some new modules might start using > 'ip-address-no-zone'. > Should they wait for the real 'ip-address' in 2 more years or just use > 'ip-address-no-zone'? > > The leaf description-stmt using 'ip-address' should specify if any zone > support is required. > The default could be 'none' so no mention is needed most of the time. > > > > > Regards, > Rob > > > > Andy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org > <mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59 > > To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org <mailto:chopps@chopps.org>> > > Cc: lsr@ietf.org <mailto:lsr@ietf.org>; netmod@ietf.org > <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa- > > yang-10.txt > > > > Hi - > > > > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > > .. > > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting that > > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misused > > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in > > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's > point). So, > > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that > the AD in > > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well. > > > > That's not the impression one gets from modules like > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt > <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt> > > which employs both types. So, regardless of whether one is willing > > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of > > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage - > > it clearly would. Furthermore, my recollection is that the > > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so > > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually > > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise. > > > > Randy > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod> > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod> > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… tom petch
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Christian Hopps
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Christian Hopps
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Jürgen Schönwälder
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Jürgen Schönwälder
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Jürgen Schönwälder
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Jürgen Schönwälder
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Jürgen Schönwälder
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… tom petch
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Martin Björklund
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Christian Hopps
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… tom petch
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… tom petch
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Christian Hopps
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Reshad Rahman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… tom petch
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Reshad Rahman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Yingzhen Qu
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Christian Hopps
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Jürgen Schönwälder
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Martin Björklund
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Martin Björklund
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Jürgen Schönwälder
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Jürgen Schönwälder
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Jürgen Schönwälder
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Martin Björklund
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… tom petch
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… tom petch
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Jürgen Schönwälder
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Martin Björklund
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Jürgen Schönwälder
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Martin Björklund
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Jürgen Schönwälder
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Jürgen Schönwälder
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… tom petch
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Christian Hopps
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-osp… Andy Bierman