Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-10.txt

["Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <[e-mail]>]

Hi Martin,

I have several concerns with this approach:

(1) I still think that the ip-address type name still ends up being non-intuitive (especially for zoned IPv4 addresses - I would be surprised to find that there is any deployment for these at all).  I.e., the evidence seems to suggest that when engineers think of IP addresses, they don't seem to generally think of zoned IP addresses.  I doubt that any fiddling of the type description is going to change that perception, not least when the definition is different for OpenConfig and in vendors models and ip-address is widely used in many published YANG models.

(2) It means that clients of YANG models using the ip-address type have no idea whether the server will support zones without either trying the configuration (which could subsequently become unsupported in the future) or requiring an out-of-band discussion with the device vendor.  For such as basic type this doesn't seem great.

(3) For IETF models, does that mean that new models should use ip-address-no-zone, and that we should change the approx. 200 usages in 40-50 published RFCs?  As mentioned previously, this doesn't seem pragmatic, or it will take the best part of a decade to happen.  During that time the difference between ip-address , ip-address-with-zone, and ip-address-no-zone will probably cause even further confusion due to the ambiguity, and differences in implementations.

(4) For NMDA models, it means that clients could (but probably never will) receive zoned ip addresses back from <operational>.  Further, if zoned IP addresses are returned, then they are expected to use numerical IDs for the zones, which seem to be effectively opaque to the client (other than uniqueness).  Clients seem to have a few choices: ignore (error?) on zoned IP addresses, ignore the zone (does that make sense), or have additional code to handle a case that for 99% of users will probably never happen.  My point being that these is also a cost to keeping support for zones in the base ip-address types.

Regards,
Rob



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Björklund <[e-mail]>
> Sent: 12 April 2022 08:26
> To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <[e-mail]>
> Cc: [e-mail]; [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-yang-
> 10.txt
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Here's another suggestion.  We keep the ip-address pattern as is, but
> document in the description that implementations do not have to
> support the optional zone index.  This would essentially document the
> behavior of most current implementations.  (This is actually what I
> suggested in the earliest thread on this topic that I could find:
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/KjHGtPqm9D4Q-
> fRb2hVsf4sPuCU)
> 
> 
> 
> /martin
> 
> 
> "Rob Wilton \(rwilton\)" <rwilton=[e-mail]> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Thanks for the comments on this thread so far.  It would be nice if we are
> able to come to some sort of rough consensus to a solution.
> >
> > I think that there is consensus that the YANG type ip-address (and the v4/v6
> versions) are badly named as the prominent default type name has been
> given to the unusual variant of including zone information.
> >
> > Based on the comments on this thread, it also seems likely to me that most
> of the usages of ip-address in YANG RFCs is likely to be wrong, and the
> intention was that IP addresses without zones was intended.  At a rough
> count, of the published RFC YANG models at github
> YangModels/standard/ietf/RFC/ to be:
> > 	86 uses of ip-address
> > 	68 uses of ipv4-address
> > 	66 uses of ipv6-address
> >
> > 	1 use of ip-address-no-zone
> > 	4 uses of ipv4-address-no-zone
> > 	4 uses of ipv6-address-no-zone
> >
> > These types appear in 49 out of the 141 YANG modules published in RFCs.
> At a quick guess/check it looks like these 49 YANG modules may appear in 40-
> 50 RFCs.
> >
> > As mentioned previously, it is also worth comparing this to the OpenConfig
> YANG modules:
> > They have redefined ip-address (and v4/v6 variants) to exclude zone
> information and have defined separate types include zone information.
> > There are no explicit uses of the "-zoned" variants of OpenConfig IP
> addresses in the latest OpenConfig github repository.  However,
> approximately a third of the IP address types are still to the ietf-inet-
> types.yang rather than openconfig-inet-types.yang, so in theory some of those
> 58 entries could still intentionally be supporting zoned IP addresses, but I
> would expect that the vast majority would not.
> > I do see some strong benefit if this basic type being defined in the same way
> in both IETF and OC YANG, and I believe that the OC folks have got the
> definition right.
> >
> > I see that some are arguing that the zone in the ip-address definition is
> effectively optional, and implementations are not really obliged to implement
> it.  I don't find that argument compelling, at least not with the current
> definition of ip-address in RFC 6991.  I see a clear difference between a type
> defined with an incomplete regex that may allow some invalid values and a
> type that is explicitly defined to included additional values in the allowable
> value space.  Further, I believe that a client just looking at the YANG module
> could reasonably expect a server that implements a data node using ip-
> address would be expected to support IP zones, where they are meaningful,
> or otherwise they should deviate that data node to indicate that they don't
> conform to the model.
> >
> > We also need to be realistic as to what implementations will do.  They are
> not going to start writing code to support zones just because they are in the
> model.  They will mostly reject IP addresses with zone information.  Perhaps
> some will deviate the type to ip-address-no-zone, but probably most won't.
> >
> > The option of respinning approx. 40-50 RFCs to fix this doesn't feel at all
> appealing.  This would take a significant amount of time/effort and I think
> that we will struggle to find folks who are willing to do this.  Although errata
> could be used to point out the bug, then can't be used to fix it, all the errata
> would be "hold for document update" at best.  Further, during the time that
> it would take us to fix it, it is plausible that more incorrect usages of ip-
> address will likely occur (but perhaps could be policed via scripted
> checks/warnings).
> >
> >
> > I still feel the right long-term solution here is to get to a state where the "ip-
> address" type means what 99% of people expect it to mean, i.e., excluding
> zone information.
> >
> > Given the pushback on making a single non-backwards compatible change
> to the new definition, I want to ask whether the following might be a possible
> path that gains wider consensus:
> >
> > (1) In RFC 6991 bis, I propose that we:
> > (i) define new ip-address-with-zone types (and v4 and v6 versions) and keep
> the -no-zone versions.
> > (ii) we change the description of "ip-address" to indicate:
> > - Although the type allows for zone information, many implementations are
> unlikely to accept zone information in most scenarios (i.e., so the description
> of the type more accurately reflects reality).
> > - A new ip-address-with-zone type has been introduced to use where zoned
> IP addresses are required/useful, and models that use ip-address with the
> intention of supporting zoned IP addresses MUST migrate to ip-address-with-
> zone.
> > - In the future (at least 2 years after RFC 6991 bis is published), the
> expectation is that the definition of ip-address will change to match that of
> ip-address-no-zone.
> >
> > (2) Then in 2 years time, we publish RFC 6991-bis-bis to change the
> definition of ip-address to match ip-address-no-zone and deprecate the "-no-
> zone" version at the same time.
> >
> > My reasoning as to why to take this path is:
> > (1) It is a phased migration, nothing breaks, 3rd parties have time to
> migrate.
> > (2) It ends up with the right definition (with the added bonus that it aligns
> to the OC definition).
> > (3) It doesn't require us republishing 40+ RFCs.
> > (4) it hopefully allows us to use YANG versioning to flag this as an NBC
> change, along with the other standards to help mitigate this change (import
> revision-or-derived, YANG packages, schema comparison).
> >
> > I would be keen to hear thoughts on whether this could be a workable
> consensus solution - i.e., specifically, you would be able to live with it.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Rob
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: netmod <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
> > > Sent: 08 April 2022 18:59
> > > To: Christian Hopps <[e-mail]>
> > > Cc: [e-mail]; [e-mail]
> > > Subject: Re: [netmod] [Lsr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lsr-ospfv3-extended-lsa-
> > > yang-10.txt
> > >
> > > Hi -
> > >
> > > On 2022-04-08 5:11 AM, Christian Hopps wrote:
> > > ..
> > > > Instead, Acee (I'm not sure I'd call him WG B :) is asserting that
> > > > *nobody* actually wanted the current type, and it has been misused
> > > > everywhere and all over. The vast majority of implementations in
> > > > operation probably can't even handle the actual type (Andy's point). So,
> > > > Acee is just the messenger of bad news here. Please note that the AD in
> > > > charge of all this agreed with Acee as well.
> > >
> > > That's not the impression one gets from modules like
> > > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-10.txt
> > > which employs both types.  So, regardless of whether one is willing
> > > to respect YANG's compatibility rules, it's no longer a matter of
> > > speculation whether a name change would cause actual damage -
> > > it clearly would.  Furthermore, my recollection is that the
> > > WG *did* discuss whether the "zonable" property was needed, so
> > > any argument based on the assertion that "*nobody* actually
> > > wanted the current type" seems to me to based on a false premise.
> > >
> > > Randy
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> >
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