Re: [OAUTH-WG] New Version Notification for draft-hunt-oauth-v2-user-a4c-05.txt

Sergey Beryozkin <sberyozkin@gmail.com> Tue, 14 October 2014 09:27 UTC

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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 10:26:55 +0100
From: Sergey Beryozkin <sberyozkin@gmail.com>
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To: Phil Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com>
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Subject: Re: [OAUTH-WG] New Version Notification for draft-hunt-oauth-v2-user-a4c-05.txt
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Sorry for the noise,
On 14/10/14 10:25, Sergey Beryozkin wrote:
> Hi Phil, All,
>
> Thanks for your positive feedback and further comments below.
> My goal was really about trying to make a clear picture in my mind about
> what OIDC is with respect to OAuth2, and specifically supporting the
> point about OIDC not being just OAuth2.
>
> As such, the idea of a specific OIDC profile where no access token was
> used appealed to me but really in light of supporting the same point
> that OIDC being not just OAuth2. I understand it 'breaks' the clean OIDC
> OAuth2-based model. Hence I also tried to suggest that even though OIDC
> does return an access token, this token does not have to be a
> full-powered token that a client can use to access something else but a
> user profile endpoint (unless custom scopes are also used). So the
> access token is there but it's only usable in the OAuth2 world.
>
meant to say in the OIDC world and as such it is a limited token

> I respect the effort done in the a4c draft - I'm just not sure really it
> has to be a separate effort (as opposed to it being an OIDC 'exception'
> light weight profile - can be simpler for users like me to have it all
> comprehended when it is a single family of docs) should the experts like
> yourself and others really like the idea of having a pure authentication
> flow supported.
>
> But I'll be watching with the interest how it all evolves now :-)
>
> Thanks, Sergey
>
> On 13/10/14 22:17, Phil Hunt wrote:
>> Sergey,
>>
>> Actually, I think your comments are fine. They add to the discussion
>> on why A4C is distinct from OIDC’s larger IDP role in an OAuth style
>> flow and why *both* are needed.
>>
>> Comments in line.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> @independentid
>> www.independentid.com
>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 13, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Sergey Beryozkin <sberyozkin@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Phil
>>>
>>> Thanks for the clarifications,
>>> On 13/10/14 20:18, Phil Hunt wrote:
>>>> The point to be made is if the client’s objective is to authenticate
>>>> the User, the base 6749 spec does not guarantee this at all.
>>>>
>>>> It simply authorizes the client to access a resource and nothing more.
>>>>
>>>> It turns out that a significant part of the time authentication does
>>>> occur, but the client does not have access to that information. Nor
>>>> can it specifically request re-authentication.
>>>>
>>>> Further, if the client doesn’t wield the access token, its might not
>>>> be proof that the token received was actually an authorization.
>>>>
>>>> OpenID gives you both authen information and authorization profile
>>>> information (as a resource).
>>>>
>>> Yes, I experimented with it.
>>>> This thread was more about how to do just authentication ONLY. What
>>>> are the requirements for a client to know a User *was* authenticated
>>>> and when.  While some flows of OpenID can achieve this, its not
>>>> clear that it addresses all cases. Furhter there is discussion (as
>>>> Justin mentions) that a flow that does not produce an access token
>>>> is not an authorization flow and is not OAuth. I agree.
>>> Sure.
>>>> It an authentication flow and should be distinct IMHO.
>>>>
>>> I guess that is why the idea of having an OIDC profile dedicated to
>>> the authentication alone (no access token) which I believe was
>>> suggested here caught my attention. But then it is not OAuth2 and
>>> hence not OIDC. The chicken in the egg situation :-). As I said in
>>> the prev email, having an access token which is really restricted to
>>> the OIDC resource (profile) seems like a good compromise…
>>
>> [PH] We discussed this in Toronto and OIDC can’t do this and be
>> compliant woith OAuth. It wouldn’t be OAuth. Someone also pointed out
>> that the OAuth WG isn’t chartered to do authentication and that kind
>> of killed the discussion leaving the issue hanging unresolved.
>>
>> If you look at draft 00 of the A4C draft you will note that I
>> originally proposed it as a new end-point. My feeling it should NOT be
>> an OAuth flow - because as Justin says, if you aren’t returning an
>> access token, you aren’t doing OAuth. The issue is that the technical
>> redirect flow for authentication and authorization share the same
>> security risks and counter-measures. It would be good therefore to
>> build “in-parallel” or “underneath” OAuth to define an authn flow.
>>
>> I would still recommend OIDC as a layer on top of OAuth that defines
>> the standard way to get profile claims (the full OAuth style IDP
>> functionality).
>>
>>>
>>>> That said, I am in the minority with this opinion and I acknowledge
>>>> as being as such.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry if I hijacked this thread and started the off-topic 'flow'...I
>>> guess my reasoning here is a bit all over the place, but I'm pretty
>>> sure now I see the big picture better
>>>
>>> Thanks, Sergey
>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>> @independentid
>>>> www.independentid.com
>>>> phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 13, 2014, at 7:28 AM, Sergey Beryozkin <sberyozkin@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 13/10/14 15:17, Justin Richer wrote:
>>>>>> You certainly can do authentication without using an access token,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> then I would argue that's no longer OAuth. Basically you're making
>>>>>> tofu
>>>>>> carob fudge.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right, the access token is there for a client to get to the
>>>>> UserInfo endpoint, as far as OIDC is concerned. What if the info in
>>>>> the id_token is sufficient ?
>>>>> I guess as far as a typical OAuth2 client is concerned, requesting
>>>>> "openid profile" only effectively gives one an access token that
>>>>> can only be used with the UserInfo endpoint.
>>>>>
>>>>> So yes, may be even though OIDC has an access token returned,
>>>>> unless other custom scopes are used, the access token would be
>>>>> pretty much of use in the OIDC context only if a client chooses to
>>>>> work with the UserInfo...I guess the id_token/at_hash is useful on
>>>>> its own
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, Sergey
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Justin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> / Sent from my phone /
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>>>> From: Sergey Beryozkin <sberyozkin@gmail.com>
>>>>>> Date:10/13/2014 9:00 AM (GMT-05:00)
>>>>>> To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>, oauth@ietf.org
>>>>>> Cc:
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [OAUTH-WG] New Version Notification for
>>>>>> draft-hunt-oauth-v2-user-a4c-05.txt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Justin,
>>>>>> On 13/10/14 12:53, Justin Richer wrote:
>>>>>>> You are correct in that OAuth 2 and OpenID Connect are not the same
>>>>>>> thing, but your user is correct that OIDC adds a few pieces on
>>>>>>> top of
>>>>>>> OAuth to add authentication capabilities. OIDC was designed very
>>>>>>> explicitly to be compatible with vanilla OAuth, partially do that
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> would be able to deploy it on top of existing OAuth
>>>>>>> infrastructure and
>>>>>>> code. But the very fact that OIDC adds a few things on top of
>>>>>>> OAuth to
>>>>>>> give more functionality should be sufficient evidence that
>>>>>>> they're not
>>>>>>> equivalent.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's more proper to say that OpenID Connect is an extension and
>>>>>>> application of OAuth. One that provides an authentication and
>>>>>> identity API.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree and this is more or less how I answered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Though the 'borders' can be blurred, one can claim that if a user
>>>>>> actually logs on into a confidential OAuth2 client web application
>>>>>> which
>>>>>> redirects this user to AS requesting a code with some scopes such
>>>>>> as "a
>>>>>> b" then when it uses "a b openid profile" it is basically does a pure
>>>>>> OAuth2 code flow where the client requests 'a b' plus also a scope
>>>>>> allowing it later to query the identity system on behalf of a user.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I like the "The extension and application of OAuth2"
>>>>>> characteristic of
>>>>>> OIDC. IMHO it's becoming more obvious if OIDC is used to support SSO
>>>>>> into non-OAuth2 servers, when it is the case then there's no
>>>>>> 'feeling'
>>>>>> that OIDC is just a case of the confidential client adding the extra
>>>>>> scopes and getting the extra (authentication) info back. A standalone
>>>>>> OIDC RP protecting such non OAuth2 servers is very much about the
>>>>>> authentication/identity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also thought that having some OID profile (as opposed updating
>>>>>> OAuth2
>>>>>> to support no access tokens) where no access but only id token was
>>>>>> returned (as suggested in this thread) would probably make sense too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The way I like to explain it (which I stole from someone else) is
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> OAuth is like chocolate and authentication is like fudge. They
>>>>>>> are not
>>>>>>> the same thing. You can make chocolate into fudge out you can
>>>>>>> make it
>>>>>>> into something else or you can just have it on its own. You can make
>>>>>>> fudge with chocolate or you can make it with peanut butter or you
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> make it with potatoes if you want to, but it needs a couple
>>>>>>> ingredients
>>>>>>> and a very common one is chocolate. OpenID Connect is a recipe for
>>>>>>> chocolate fudge that a lot of people like. And it makes my fudge
>>>>>>> compatible with your fudge, which is where the metaphor breaks
>>>>>>> down. :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for sharing this colourful explanation :-). Perhaps I should
>>>>>> borrow it :-),
>>>>>> Cheers, Sergey
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- Justin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> / Sent from my phone /
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>>>>> From: Sergey Beryozkin <sberyozkin@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Date:10/13/2014 6:33 AM (GMT-05:00)
>>>>>>> To: oauth@ietf.org
>>>>>>> Cc:
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [OAUTH-WG] New Version Notification for
>>>>>>> draft-hunt-oauth-v2-user-a4c-05.txt
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We've had a user asserting that "OAuth2 == OpenidConnect",
>>>>>>> referring to
>>>>>>> the fact that the 'only' thing OIC adds on top of the
>>>>>>> authorization code
>>>>>>> flow is the client specifying few extra scopes like 'openid' and
>>>>>>> 'profile' and the authorization service returning an extra
>>>>>>> property, the
>>>>>>> id_token which can be sufficient in order to get the authenticated
>>>>>>> user's info.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My understanding "OAuth2 != OpenidConnect", the latter utilizes the
>>>>>>> former and is an authentication mechanism which is not what
>>>>>>> OAuth2 is
>>>>>>> (may be except for the client credentials). But I don't feel like
>>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>> a convincing enough argument.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I thought this thread was relevant, sorry if not, would have no
>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>> starting a new one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Basically, I wonder what is the proper line of argument for a
>>>>>>> position
>>>>>>> such as "OAuth2 != OpenidConnect" and also what was the action to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> list of options suggested by John below. Is having an OID profile
>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>> no access token is returned would be the cleanest action as far as
>>>>>>> breaking the ambiguity/confusion is concerned ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers, Sergey
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 24/07/14 15:25, John Bradley wrote:
>>>>>>>   > I am not against discussion in the WG.
>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>>   > I happen to agree with Phil's fundamental premise that some
>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>   > are using OAuth in a insecure way to do authentication.
>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>>   > That raises the question of how to best educate them, and or
>>>>>>> address
>>>>>>>   > technical barriers.
>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>>   > It is on the second point that people's opinions seem to divide.
>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>>   > Some people thing that if we have a OAuth flow that
>>>>>>> eliminates the
>>>>>>>   > access token (primarily to avoid asking for consent as I
>>>>>> understand it)
>>>>>>>   > and just return a id_token from the token endpoint that can be
>>>>>> done in a
>>>>>>>   > spec short enough to het people to read.   The subtext of
>>>>>>> this is that
>>>>>>>   > the Connect specification is too large that it scare people,
>>>>>>> and they
>>>>>>>   > don't find the spec in the first place because it is not a RFC.
>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>>   > An other common possession is that if you don't want to
>>>>>>> prompt the
>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>   > for consent then don't ask for scopes.  Twisting the OAuth
>>>>>>> spec to not
>>>>>>>   > return an access token is not OAuth,  yes you could use a
>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>   > endpoint rather than the token endpoint, but that is not OAuth.
>>>>>>>   > Connect was careful not to break the OAuth spec.    As long
>>>>>>> as you are
>>>>>>>   > willing to take a access token with no scopes (the client
>>>>>>> needs to
>>>>>>>   > understand that there are no attributes one way or another
>>>>>>> anyway
>>>>>> or it
>>>>>>>   > will break) then you don't need to change OAuth.   You can
>>>>>>> publish a
>>>>>>>   > profile of connect that satisfies the use case.
>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>>   > I think Mike has largely done that but it might be better
>>>>>>> being less
>>>>>>>   > stingy on references back to the larger spec.
>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>>   > The questions are do we modify OAuth to not return an access
>>>>>> token, and
>>>>>>>   > if so how,  and if we do is it still OAuth.
>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>>   > The other largely separable question is do we create
>>>>>>> confusion in the
>>>>>>>   > market and slow the the adoption of identity federation on
>>>>>>> top of
>>>>>> OAuth,
>>>>>>>   > or find a way to make this look like a positive alignment of
>>>>>>> interests
>>>>>>>   > around a subset of Connect.
>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>>   > There are a number of options.
>>>>>>>   > 1: We can do a profile in the OIDF and publish it as a IETF
>>>>>>> document.
>>>>>>>   > Perhaps the cleanest from an IPR point of view.However
>>>>>>>   > 2:We can do a profile in the OAuth WG referencing connect.
>>>>>>>   > 3:We can do a AD sponsored profile that is not in the OAuth WG.
>>>>>>>   > 4:We can do a small spec in OAuth to add response_type to the
>>>>>>> token
>>>>>>>   > endpoint.  in combination with 1, 2, or 3
>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>>   > I agree that stoping developers doing insecure things needs
>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>   > addressed somehow.
>>>>>>>   > I am not personally convinced that Oauth without access
>>>>>>> tokens is
>>>>>>> sensible.
>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>>   > Looking forward to the meeting:)
>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>>   > John B.
>>>>>>>   > On Jul 24, 2014, at 6:52 AM, Brian Campbell
>>>>>> <bcampbell@pingidentity.com
>>>>>>>   > <mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>   >
>>>>>>>   >> I'd note that the reaction at the conference to Ian's
>>>>>>> statement was
>>>>>>>   >> overwhelmingly positive. There was a wide range of industry
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>   >> here - implementers, practitioners, deployers, strategists,
>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>> - and
>>>>>>>   >> it seems pretty clear that the "rough consensus" of the
>>>>>>> industry at
>>>>>>>   >> large is that a4c is not wanted or needed.
>>>>>>>   >>
>>>>>>>   >>
>>>>>>>   >> On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 5:29 AM, Nat Sakimura
>>>>>>> <sakimura@gmail.com
>>>>>>>   >> <mailto:sakimura@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>   >>
>>>>>>>   >>     And here is a quote from Ian's blog.
>>>>>>>   >>
>>>>>>>   >>         And although the authentication wheel is round, that
>>>>>>> doesn’t
>>>>>>>   >>         mean it isn’t without its lumps. First, we do see some
>>>>>>>   >>         reinventing the wheel just to reinvent the wheel. OAuth
>>>>>> A4C is
>>>>>>>   >>         simply not a fruitful activity and should be put down.
>>>>>>>   >>
>>>>>>>   >>         (Source)
>>>>>>>   >>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.tuesdaynight.org/2014/07/23/do-we-have-a-round-wheel-yet-musings-on-identity-standards-part-1.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>
>>>>>>>   >>
>>>>>>>   >>
>>>>>>>   >>     2014-07-23 16:53 GMT-04:00 John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com
>>>>>>>   >>     <mailto:ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>>:
>>>>>>>   >>
>>>>>>>   >>         I thought I did post this to the list.
>>>>>>>   >>
>>>>>>>   >>         I guess I hit the wrong reply on my phone.
>>>>>>>   >>         John B.
>>>>>>>   >>         Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>   >>
>>>>>>>   >>         On Jul 23, 2014, at 4:50 PM, torsten@lodderstedt.net
>>>>>>>   >>         <mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>   >>
>>>>>>>   >>>         we are two, at least :-)
>>>>>>>   >>>
>>>>>>>   >>>         Why didn't you post this on the list?
>>>>>>>   >>>
>>>>>>>   >>>         When will be be arriving?
>>>>>>>   >>>
>>>>>>>   >>>         Am 23.07.2014 16:39, schrieb John Bradley:
>>>>>>>   >>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>         Ian Glazer mentioned this in his keynote at CIS
>>>>>>> yesterday.
>>>>>>>   >>>>         His advice was please stop,  we are creating
>>>>>>> confusion and
>>>>>>>   >>>>         uncertainty.
>>>>>>>   >>>>         We are becoming our own wort enemy. ( my view though
>>>>>> Ian may
>>>>>>>   >>>>         share it)
>>>>>>>   >>>>         Returning just an id_ token from the token
>>>>>>> endpoint has
>>>>>>>   >>>>         little real value.
>>>>>>>   >>>>         Something really useful to do would be sorting out
>>>>>>>   >>>>         channel_id so we can do PoP for id tokens to make
>>>>>>> them and
>>>>>>>   >>>>         other cookies secure in the front channel.   I think
>>>>>> that is
>>>>>>>   >>>>         a better use of time.
>>>>>>>   >>>>         I may be in the minority opinion on that,  it
>>>>>>> won't be the
>>>>>>>   >>>>         first time.
>>>>>>>   >>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>         John B.
>>>>>>>   >>>>         Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>   >>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>         On Jul 23, 2014, at 4:04 PM, Torsten Lodderstedt
>>>>>>>   >>>>         <torsten@lodderstedt.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>         wrote:
>>>>>>>   >>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>         You are right from a theoretical perspective.
>>>>>>> Practically
>>>>>>>   >>>>>         this was caused by editorial decisions during the
>>>>>>> creation
>>>>>>>   >>>>>         of the RFC. As far as I remember, there was a
>>>>>> definition of
>>>>>>>   >>>>>         the (one) token endpoint response in early versions.
>>>>>> No one
>>>>>>>   >>>>>         every considered to NOT respond with an access
>>>>>>> token from
>>>>>>>   >>>>>         the token endpoint. So one might call it an implicit
>>>>>>>   >>>>>         assumption.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>         I'm worried that people get totally confused if an
>>>>>>>   >>>>>         exception is introduced now given the broad
>>>>>>> adoption of
>>>>>>>   >>>>>         OAuth based on this assumption.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>         regards,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>         Torsten.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>         Am 23.07.2014 um 15:41 schrieb Thomas Broyer
>>>>>>>   >>>>>         <t.broyer@gmail.com <mailto:t.broyer@gmail.com>>:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>         Is it said anywhere that ALL grant types MUST
>>>>>>> use Section
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>         5.1 responses? Each grant type references Section
>>>>>> 5.1, and
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>         "access token request" is only defined in the
>>>>>>> context of
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>         the defined grant types. Section 2.2 doesn't
>>>>>>> talk about
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>         the request or response format.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>         Le 23 juil. 2014 21:32, "Nat Sakimura"
>>>>>> <sakimura@gmail.com
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>         <mailto:sakimura@gmail.com>> a écrit :
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>             Is it? Apart from the implicit grant that does
>>>>>> not use
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>             token endpoint, all other grant references
>>>>>> section 5.1
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>             for the response, i.e., all shares the same
>>>>>>> response.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>             2014-07-23 15:18 GMT-04:00 Thomas Broyer
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>             <t.broyer@gmail.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:t.broyer@gmail.com>>:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                 I hadn't realized the JSON response that
>>>>>>> requires
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                 the access_token field is defined per
>>>>>>> grant_type,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                 so I'd be OK to "extend the semantics"
>>>>>>> as in the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                 current draft.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                 That was actually my main concern: that
>>>>>>> the token
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                 endpoint mandates access_token; but its
>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                 not the case.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                 Le 23 juil. 2014 20:46, "Nat Sakimura"
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                 <sakimura@gmail.com
>>>>>> <mailto:sakimura@gmail.com>> a
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                 écrit :
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     I agree with John that overloading
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     response_type @ authz endpoint is a
>>>>>>> bad idea.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     It completely changes the semantics
>>>>>>> of this
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     parameter. NOTE: what I was
>>>>>>> proposing was not
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     this parameter, but a new parameter
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     response_type @ token endpoint.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     I also think overloading grant_type
>>>>>>> is a bad
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     idea since it changes its semantics.
>>>>>>> I quote
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     the definition here again:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     grant
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         credential representing the
>>>>>>> resource
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     owner's authorization
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     grant_type
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     type of grant sent to the token
>>>>>>> endpoint to
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     obtain the access token
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     It is not about controlling what is
>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     returned from the token endpoint,
>>>>>>> but the
>>>>>> hint
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     to the token endpoint describing the
>>>>>>> type of
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     credential the endpoint has
>>>>>>> received. It
>>>>>> seems
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     the "control of what is being
>>>>>>> returned from
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     token endpoint"  is just a side effect.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     I am somewhat ambivalent[1] in
>>>>>>> changing the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     semantics of token endpoint, but in as
>>>>>> much as
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     "text is the king" for a spec., we
>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     should not change the semantics of
>>>>>>> it as
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     Torsten points out. If it is ok to
>>>>>>> change
>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     semantics, I believe defining a new
>>>>>>> parameter
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     to this endpoint to control the
>>>>>>> response
>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     be the best way to go. This is what
>>>>>>> I have
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     described previously.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     Defining a new endpoint to send code to
>>>>>> get ID
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     Token and forbidding the use of it
>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     token endpoint would not change the
>>>>>>> semantics
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     of any existing parameter or
>>>>>>> endpoint, which
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     is good. However, I doubt if it is
>>>>>>> not worth
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     doing. What's the point of avoiding
>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     token scoped to UserInfo endpoint
>>>>>>> after all?
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     Defining a new endpoint for just
>>>>>>> avoiding the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     access token for userinfo endpoint
>>>>>>> seems way
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     too much the heavy wait way and it
>>>>>>> breaks
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     interoperabiliy: it defeats the
>>>>>>> purpose of
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     standardization.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     I have started feeling that no
>>>>>>> change is the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     best way out.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     Nat
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     [1]  If instead of saying "Token
>>>>>>> endpoint -
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     used by the client to exchange an
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     authorization grant for an access
>>>>>>> token,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     typically with client
>>>>>>> authentication", it
>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     saying "Token endpoint - used by the
>>>>>> client to
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     exchange an authorization grant for
>>>>>>> tokens,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     typically with client authentication",
>>>>>> then it
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     would have been OK. It is an
>>>>>>> expansion of the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     capability rather than changing the
>>>>>> semantics.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     2014-07-23 13:39 GMT-04:00 Mike Jones
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         You need the alternative
>>>>>>> response_type
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         value ("code_for_id_token" in
>>>>>>> the A4C
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         draft) to tell the Authorization
>>>>>> Server to
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         return a code to be used with
>>>>>>> the new
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         grant type, rather than one to
>>>>>>> use with
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         the "authorization_code" grant type
>>>>>> (which
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         is what response_type=code does).
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         *From:*OAuth
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         [mailto:oauth-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         <mailto:oauth-bounces@ietf.org>]
>>>>>>> *On
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         Behalf Of *John Bradley
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         *Sent:* Wednesday, July 23, 2014
>>>>>>> 10:33 AM
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         *To:* torsten@lodderstedt.net
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         <mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         *Cc:* oauth@ietf.org
>>>>>> <mailto:oauth@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         *Subject:* Re: [OAUTH-WG] New
>>>>>>> Version
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         Notification for
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         draft-hunt-oauth-v2-user-a4c-05.txt
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         If we use the token endpoint
>>>>>>> then a new
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         grant_type is the best way.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         It sort of overloads code, but
>>>>>>> that is
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         better than messing with
>>>>>> response_type for
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         the authorization endpoint to
>>>>>>> change the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         response from the token_endpoint.
>>>>>> That is
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         in my opinion a champion bad idea.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         In discussions developing
>>>>>>> Connect we
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         decided not to open this can of
>>>>>>> worms
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         because no good would come of it.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         The token_endpoint returns a access
>>>>>> token.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                          Nothing requires scope to be
>>>>>>> associates
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         with the token.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         That is the best solution.  No
>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         required.  Better
>>>>>>> interoperability in my
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         opinion.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         Still on my way to TO, getting
>>>>>>> in later
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         today.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         John B.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         On Jul 23, 2014, at 12:15 PM,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         torsten@lodderstedt.net
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         <mailto:torsten@lodderstedt.net>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             The "response type" of the
>>>>>>> token
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             endpoint is controlled by the
>>>>>> value of
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             the parameter "grant_type".
>>>>>>> So there
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             is no need to introduce a new
>>>>>> parameter.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             wrt to a potential
>>>>>>> "no_access_token"
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             grant type. I do not
>>>>>>> consider this a
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             good idea as it changes the
>>>>>>> semantics
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             of the token endpoint (as
>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             pointed out by Thomas). This
>>>>>>> endpoint
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             ALWAYS responds with an
>>>>>>> access token
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             to any grant type. I
>>>>>>> therefore would
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             prefer to use another endpoint
>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             intended purpose.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             regards,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             Torsten.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             Am 23.07.2014 13:04, schrieb
>>>>>>> Nat
>>>>>>> Sakimura:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 IMHO, changing the
>>>>>>> semantics of
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 "response_type" @ authz
>>>>>>> endpoint
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 this way is not a good
>>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Instead, defining a new
>>>>>>> parameter
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 "response_type" @ token
>>>>>>> endpoint,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 as I described in my
>>>>>>> previous
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 message,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 probably is better. At
>>>>>>> least, it
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 does not change the
>>>>>>> semantics of
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 the parameters of RFC6749.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                  Nat
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 2014-07-23 12:48
>>>>>>> GMT-04:00 Thomas
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Broyer <t.broyer@gmail.com
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <mailto:t.broyer@gmail.com>>:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 No, I mean
>>>>>>> response_type=none and
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 response_type=id_token
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 generate a code or access
>>>>>> token so
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 you don't use the Token
>>>>>>> Endpoint
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 (which is not the same
>>>>>>> as the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Authentication Endpoint
>>>>>>> BTW).
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 With
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> response_type=code_for_id_token,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 you get a code and exchange
>>>>>> it for
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 an id_token only, rather
>>>>>>> than an
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 access_token, so you're
>>>>>>> changing
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 the semantics of the Token
>>>>>> Endpoint.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 I'm not saying it's a
>>>>>>> bad thing,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 just that you can't really
>>>>>> compare
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 none and id_token with
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 code_for_id_token.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at
>>>>>>> 6:45 PM,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Richer, Justin P.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 <jricher@mitre.org
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 <mailto:jricher@mitre.org>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 It's only "not using the
>>>>>>> token
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 endpoint" because the token
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 endpoint copy-pasted and
>>>>>>> renamed
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 the authentication
>>>>>>> endpoint.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                  -- Justin
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 On Jul 23, 2014, at 9:30
>>>>>>> AM,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Thomas Broyer
>>>>>>> <t.broyer@gmail.com
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <mailto:t.broyer@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Except that these are
>>>>>>> about not
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 using the Token Endpoint
>>>>>>> at all,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 whereas the current
>>>>>>> proposal is
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 about the Token Endpoint
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 returning an access_token
>>>>>> field in
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 the JSON.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at
>>>>>>> 4:26 PM,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Mike Jones
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 wrote:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 The response_type "none" is
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 already used in
>>>>>>> practice, which
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 returns no access
>>>>>>> token.  It was
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 accepted by the designated
>>>>>> experts
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 and registered in the
>>>>>>> IANA OAuth
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Authorization Endpoint
>>>>>>> Response
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Types registry at
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.iana.org/assignments/oauth-parameters/oauth-parameters.xml#endpoint
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://www.iana.org/assignments/oauth-parameters/oauth-parameters.xml#endpoint>.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 The registered "id_token"
>>>>>> response
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 type also returns no access
>>>>>> token.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 So I think the question of
>>>>>> whether
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 response types that
>>>>>>> result in no
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 access token being
>>>>>>> returned are
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 acceptable within OAuth
>>>>>>> 2.0 is
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 already settled, as a
>>>>>>> practical
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 matter.  Lots of OAuth
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 implementations are
>>>>>>> already using
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 such response types.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 -- Mike
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 *From:*OAuth
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> [mailto:oauth-bounces@ietf.org
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <mailto:oauth-bounces@ietf.org>]
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 *On Behalf Of *Phil Hunt
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 *Sent:* Wednesday, July
>>>>>>> 23, 2014
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 7:09 AM
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 *To:* Nat Sakimura
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 *Cc:* <oauth@ietf.org
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 <mailto:oauth@ietf.org>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 *Subject:* Re:
>>>>>>> [OAUTH-WG] New
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Version Notification for
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>> draft-hunt-oauth-v2-user-a4c-05.txt
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Yes. This is why it has
>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 discussed in the IETF.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Phil
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 @independentid
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 www.independentid.com
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <http://www.independentid.com/>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 On Jul 23, 2014, at 9:43
>>>>>>> AM, Nat
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Sakimura
>>>>>>> <sakimura@gmail.com
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <mailto:sakimura@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Reading back the RFC6749, I
>>>>>> am not
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 sure if there is a good
>>>>>>> way of
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 suppressing access token
>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 response and still be
>>>>>>> OAuth. It
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 will break whole bunch of
>>>>>> implicit
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 definitions like:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 authorization server
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                       The server issuing
>>>>>>> access
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 tokens to the client after
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 successfully
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                       authenticating the
>>>>>>> resource
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 owner and obtaining
>>>>>> authorization.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 After all, OAuth is all
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 issuing access tokens.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Also, I take back my
>>>>>>> statement on
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 the grant type in my
>>>>>>> previous
>>>>>> mail.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 The definition of grant and
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 grant_type are
>>>>>>> respectively:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 grant
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     credential
>>>>>>> representing the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 resource owner's
>>>>>>> authorization
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 grant_type
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     (string representing
>>>>>>> the)
>>>>>> type
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 of grant sent to the token
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 endpoint to obtain the
>>>>>>> access
>>>>>> token
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Thus, the grant sent to
>>>>>>> the token
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 endpoint in this case is
>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 'code'.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Response type on the other
>>>>>> hand is
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 not so well defined in
>>>>>>> RFC6749,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 but it seems it is
>>>>>>> representing
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 what is to be returned
>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 authorization endpoint. To
>>>>>> express
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 what is to be returned
>>>>>>> from token
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 endpoint, perhaps
>>>>>>> defining a new
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 parameter to the token
>>>>>>> endpoint,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 which is a parallel to the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 response_type to the
>>>>>> Authorization
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Endpoint seems to be a more
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 symmetric way, though I
>>>>>>> am not
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 sure at all if that is
>>>>>>> going
>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 OAuth any more. One
>>>>>>> straw-man is
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 to define a new
>>>>>>> parameter called
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 response_type to the token
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 endpoint such as:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 response_type
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     OPTIONAL. A string
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 representing what is to be
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 returned from the token
>>>>>>> endpoint.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Then define the behavior
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 endpoint according to
>>>>>>> the values
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 as the parallel to the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 multi-response type spec.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://openid.net/specs/oauth-v2-multiple-response-types-1_0.html
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Nat
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 2014-07-23 7:21
>>>>>>> GMT-04:00 Phil
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Hunt <phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 The draft is very clear.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Phil
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 On Jul 23, 2014, at
>>>>>>> 0:46, Nat
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Sakimura
>>>>>>> <sakimura@gmail.com
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <mailto:sakimura@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     The new grant type
>>>>>>> that I was
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     talking about was
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> "authorization_code_but_do_not_return_access_nor_refresh_token",
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     so to speak.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     It does not return
>>>>>>> anything
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     per se, but an
>>>>>>> extension can
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     define something on top
>>>>>> of it.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     Then, OIDC can define a
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     binding to it so
>>>>>>> that the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     binding only returns ID
>>>>>> Token.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     This binding work
>>>>>>> should be
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     done in OIDF. Should
>>>>>>> there be
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     such a grant type,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     it will be an
>>>>>>> extremely short
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     spec.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     At the same time, if
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     specification wanted to
>>>>>> define
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     other type of tokens
>>>>>>> and have
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     it returned from the
>>>>>>> token
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     endpoint,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     it can also use this
>>>>>> grant type.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     If what you want is
>>>>>>> to define
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     a new grant type
>>>>>>> that returns
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     ID Token only,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     then, I am with
>>>>>>> Justin. Since
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     "other response than ID
>>>>>> Token"
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     is only
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     theoretical, this is
>>>>>>> a more
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     plausible way
>>>>>>> forward, I
>>>>>>> suppose.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     Nat
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     2014-07-22 14:30
>>>>>>> GMT-04:00
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     Justin Richer
>>>>>> <jricher@mit.edu
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     So the draft would
>>>>>>> literally
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     turn into:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     "The a4c response
>>>>>>> type and
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     grant type return an
>>>>>>> id_token
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     from the token
>>>>>>> endpoint with
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     no access token. All
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     parameters and
>>>>>>> values are
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     defined in OIDC."
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     Seems like the
>>>>>>> perfect mini
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     extension draft for
>>>>>>> OIDF
>>>>>> to do.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     --Justin
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     /sent from my phone/
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     On Jul 22, 2014
>>>>>>> 10:29 AM, Nat
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     Sakimura
>>>>>>> <sakimura@gmail.com
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <mailto:sakimura@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     wrote:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     > What about just
>>>>>>> defining a
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     new grant type in
>>>>>>> this WG?
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     > 2014-07-22 12:56
>>>>>>> GMT-04:00
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     Phil Hunt
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     <phil.hunt@oracle.com
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>> <mailto:phil.hunt@oracle.com>>:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >> That would be nice.
>>>>>> However
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     oidc still needs the
>>>>>>> new
>>>>>> grant
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     type in order to
>>>>>> implement the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     same flow.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >> Phil
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >> On Jul 22, 2014,
>>>>>>> at 11:35,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     Nat Sakimura
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     <sakimura@gmail.com
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <mailto:sakimura@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     wrote:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>> +1 to Justin.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>> 2014-07-22 9:54
>>>>>>> GMT-04:00
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     Richer, Justin P.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     <jricher@mitre.org
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <mailto:jricher@mitre.org>>:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>> Errors like these
>>>>>> make it
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     clear to me that it
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     much more sense to
>>>>>>> develop
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     this document in the
>>>>>>> OpenID
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     Foundation. It
>>>>>>> should be
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     something that directly
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     references OpenID
>>>>>>> Connect
>>>>>> Core
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     for all of these terms
>>>>>> instead
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     of redefining them.
>>>>>>> It's
>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     authentication,
>>>>>>> which is
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     fundamentally what
>>>>>>> OpenID
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     Connect does on top
>>>>>>> of OAuth,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     and I don't see a good
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     argument for doing
>>>>>>> this work
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     in this working group.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>  -- Justin
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>> On Jul 22,
>>>>>>> 2014, at 4:30
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     AM, Thomas Broyer
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     <t.broyer@gmail.com
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <mailto:t.broyer@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     wrote:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>> On Mon, Jul
>>>>>>> 21, 2014 at
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     11:52 PM, Mike Jones
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     wrote:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>> Thanks for your
>>>>>> review,
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     Thomas.  The
>>>>>>> "prompt=consent"
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     definition being
>>>>>>> missing
>>>>>> is an
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     editorial error.  It
>>>>>> should be:
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>> consent
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>> The
>>>>>>> Authorization
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     Server SHOULD prompt
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     End-User for consent
>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     returning
>>>>>>> information to the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     Client. If it cannot
>>>>>>> obtain
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     consent, it MUST
>>>>>>> return an
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     error, typically
>>>>>>> consent_required.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>> I'll plan to
>>>>>>> add it in
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     the next draft.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>> It looks like the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     consent_required
>>>>>>> error needs
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     to be defined too,
>>>>>>> and you
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     might have forgotten
>>>>>>> to also
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     import
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> account_selection_required
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     from OpenID Connect.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>> I agree that
>>>>>> there's no
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     difference between a
>>>>>>> response
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     with multiple "amr"
>>>>>>> values
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     that includes "mfa"
>>>>>>> and one
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     that doesn't.
>>>>>>> Unless a clear
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     use case for why
>>>>>>> "mfa" is
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     needed can be
>>>>>>> identified, we
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     can delete it in the
>>>>>>> next
>>>>>> draft.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>> How about
>>>>>>> "pwd" then? I
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     fully understand that I
>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     return "pwd" if the
>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     authenticated using a
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     password, but what "the
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     service if a client
>>>>>>> secret is
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     used" means in the
>>>>>>> definition
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     for the "pwd" value?
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>> (Nota: I know
>>>>>>> you're at
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     IETF-90, I'm ready
>>>>>>> to wait
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     'til you come back
>>>>>>> ;-) )
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>> --
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>> Thomas Broyer
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>> /tɔ.ma.bʁwa.je/
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> <http://xn--nna.ma.xn--bwa-xxb.je/>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>> OAuth mailing
>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>> OAuth@ietf.org
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     <mailto:OAuth@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>> OAuth mailing list
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>> OAuth@ietf.org
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     <mailto:OAuth@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>> --
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>> Nat Sakimura (=nat)
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>> Chairman, OpenID
>>>>>> Foundation
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>
>>>>>>> http://nat.sakimura.org/
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>> @_nat_en
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>> OAuth mailing list
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>> OAuth@ietf.org
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     <mailto:OAuth@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     > --
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     > Nat Sakimura (=nat)
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     > Chairman, OpenID
>>>>>>> Foundation
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     >
>>>>>>> http://nat.sakimura.org/
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     > @_nat_en
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     --
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     Nat Sakimura (=nat)
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     Chairman, OpenID
>>>>>>> Foundation
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://nat.sakimura.org/
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                     @_nat_en
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 --
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Nat Sakimura (=nat)
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Chairman, OpenID Foundation
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 http://nat.sakimura.org/
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 @_nat_en
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 OAuth mailing list
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 OAuth@ietf.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:OAuth@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 --
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Thomas Broyer
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 /tɔ.ma.bʁwa.je/
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://xn--nna.ma.xn--bwa-xxb.je/>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 OAuth mailing list
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 OAuth@ietf.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:OAuth@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 --
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Thomas Broyer
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 /tɔ.ma.bʁwa.je/
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://xn--nna.ma.xn--bwa-xxb.je/>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 OAuth mailing list
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 OAuth@ietf.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:OAuth@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 --
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Nat Sakimura (=nat)
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 Chairman, OpenID Foundation
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 http://nat.sakimura.org/
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 @_nat_en
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 OAuth mailing list
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                                 OAuth@ietf.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:OAuth@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             OAuth mailing list
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                             OAuth@ietf.org
>>>>>> <mailto:OAuth@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         OAuth mailing list
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                         OAuth@ietf.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:OAuth@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     --
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     Nat Sakimura (=nat)
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     Chairman, OpenID Foundation
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     http://nat.sakimura.org/
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>                     @_nat_en
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>   >>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> OAuth mailing list
>>>>> OAuth@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>


-- 
Sergey Beryozkin

Talend Community Coders
http://coders.talend.com/

Blog: http://sberyozkin.blogspot.com