Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering-06]
Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> Thu, 06 December 2018 19:24 UTC
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From: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
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Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 14:24:13 -0500
Cc: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, IETF list <ietf@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering.all@ietf.org, heard@pobox.com, opsec@ietf.org, tsv-art@ietf.org, gert@space.net
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To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering-06]
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> On Dec 6, 2018, at 9:05 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > Speaking as an individual who ballots on working group charters ... > > On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 7:38 AM Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 06/12/2018 12:57, Gert Doering wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Thu, Dec 06, 2018 at 10:28:53AM +0000, Stewart Bryant wrote: > >> However, aren't we moving to a world where new protocols get carried > >> over UDP anyway? > > Over HTTPS, you intended to say? > Some and some. It depends on what aspect of the stack you spend your > time thinking about. > > "you're both right" :-) ... > > As noted earlier in this thread, we punted new transport protocols into UDP encapsulation at roughly the "we can't get SCTP deployed at scale, we can't get DCCP deployed at scale, and we don't see any reason to think that any new transport protocol will be any different" stage, at least a decade ago. So, when I see people talking about SCTP, it's usually in a context like RTCWeb, where the stack looks like SCTP/DTLS/UDP, and QUIC is only defined over UDP. > > (I suspect the world would have been a slightly better place if we'd done the DCCP encapsulation in UDP from day 1, because DCCP functionality could have been really useful when we started encapsulating every known network protocol in UDP, but that's not relevant to this discussion) > > But since QUIC's initial deliverable includes its HTTP mapping, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-httpbis-bcp56bis/ comes into play. I would oversimplify that draft as saying "we are way more excited about applications using HTTP as a substrate now, than we were in 2002", so, yes, the future smells a lot like HTTPS over (mumble) over UDP, at least to me. > > I don't know that's a perfect plan, but I've been balloting on working group charters for at least 3 years, assuming that it's a plan. Yes, we’ve also seen the security/crypto all the things overreach impact the routing area as well. We’ve not seen a suitable option to replace TCP transport that is viable due to the timescales involved. I’ve provided feedback at the mic in London in SAAG about the problems of this for people who need very reliable transport, some level of transport security but do not want or require transport privacy. - Jared
- [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ops… Michael Scharf
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christian Huitema
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christian Huitema
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Mark Andrews
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… C. M. Heard
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Mark Andrews
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … David Farmer
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Randy Bush
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christian Huitema
- [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of dra… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Brian E Carpenter
- [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Smith, Donald
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… C. M. Heard
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… C. M. Heard
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Smith, Donald
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Nico Williams
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Pete Resnick
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Nico Williams
- [OPSEC] OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-art] … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-a… Nico Williams
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-a… Gert Doering
- [OPSEC] Engaging constructively [HbH flags [Tsvar… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Wes Hardaker
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Wes Hardaker
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Fernando Gont