Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering-06
Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> Wed, 05 December 2018 19:33 UTC
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To: Gert Doering <gert@space.net>, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering.all@ietf.org, OPSEC <opsec@ietf.org>, tsv-art <tsv-art@ietf.org>, IETF-Discussion Discussion <ietf@ietf.org>
References: <CAN-Dau0go6_Puf0A9e7KBpk0ApJBUvcxYtezxnwNc-8pKJ3PwQ@mail.gmail.com> <4D69FA8E-FB8A-4A16-9CA6-690D8AE33C9E@strayalpha.com> <20181205122142.GJ1543@Space.Net> <F17C4944-09EC-4AAC-84A0-B660E36AAE89@strayalpha.com> <20181205133821.GL1543@Space.Net> <B6280E0C-6B20-43C1-BB34-170FB06F1EF7@strayalpha.com> <20181205135723.GN1543@Space.Net> <54C715AE-8931-4FA9-AA01-2311EB0055F0@employees.org> <20181205164558.GQ1543@Space.Net> <CCFEFC5B-53AE-4079-B64A-A72A71274FAD@employees.org> <20181205180855.GR1543@Space.Net>
From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2018 11:26:38 -0800
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Subject: Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering-06
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On 12/5/2018 10:08 AM, Gert Doering wrote: > On Wed, Dec 05, 2018 at 06:57:28PM +0100, Ole Troan wrote: >> You are creating the ???perceived??? security problem yourself, by requiring processing deeper into the packet than is required. >> Just comply with RFC8200. As long as a router is not configured to process any HBH options, it can ignore the header. >> You seem to think HBH still means ???punt to software???. If it ever meant that. >> >> There???s no need for rate-limiting for not processing HBH obviously. > I *must* be able to look at the protocol field of packets coming in on > our borders (see detailed description on our rate-limiting rules in > another mail of today). If there are EHs in the way so our routers' > hardware cannot decide if this is a TCP or UDP packet, these packets > go down the drain. Gert, I think that you are actually pointing at a significant issue with the draft. The draft goes into an evaluation of "security issues", without actually explaining some basic assumptions. For example, it is hard to believe that a router forwarding too many packets of any kind will cause an issue for the security *of that router*. But on the other hand there is a widely distributed practice of network equipment attempting to provide differential treatment of packets based on protocol types and port numbers. That practice is not acknowledged in the RFC that specify IPv6. In fact, the IPv6 design assumes that routers only look at the address and flow-id fields. This design is actually a departure from IPv4, whose header format makes it easy to skip over the option field and assess the "five tuple". The draft *implicitly* assumes that routers will try to find the protocol and port numbers "because of security reasons", but never actually delineates these reasons. I think the discussion would be much more productive if the draft started by explaining why network managers believe that access to the "five tuple" is essential for a variety of reasons, many of which are only tangentially related to "security". At that point we can have a discussion between protocol designers assuming that the network routers shall only look at IPv6 addresses and that everything else is end-to-end on one side, and on the other side network managers explaining why they need access to the payload type and port numbers. My personal preferences on the subject are not very relevant, and I could actually line up arguments for both sides of that debate. But I believe that getting to a resolution there would be much better than arguing piecemeal over this or that end-to-end option. -- Christian Huitema
- [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ops… Michael Scharf
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christian Huitema
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christian Huitema
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Mark Andrews
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… C. M. Heard
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Mark Andrews
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … David Farmer
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Randy Bush
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christian Huitema
- [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of dra… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Brian E Carpenter
- [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Smith, Donald
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… C. M. Heard
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… C. M. Heard
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Smith, Donald
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Nico Williams
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Pete Resnick
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Nico Williams
- [OPSEC] OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-art] … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-a… Nico Williams
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-a… Gert Doering
- [OPSEC] Engaging constructively [HbH flags [Tsvar… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Wes Hardaker
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Wes Hardaker
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Fernando Gont