Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering-06]
Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Thu, 06 December 2018 20:03 UTC
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Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 14:03:20 -0600
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From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: "C. M. Heard" <heard@pobox.com>
Cc: Gert Doering <gert@space.net>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering.all@ietf.org, OPSEC <opsec@ietf.org>, TSV-ART <tsv-art@ietf.org>
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References: <CACL_3VGeJPzDhS0RVAvpQs9W8b4EODft-qJRwBD6Xxm+X6BZ6A@mail.gmail.com> <CAL9jLabK0bZz2nki=oFNHT0OrpVAB8pw7emAj2BtkHRCzkfmqQ@mail.gmail.com> <cf64abbf-e447-71e3-b983-4e525cc139aa@gmail.com> <CAL9jLaYMRDGFa7Qzj4ukRV1FPbJM40qbuZ34SYxoA30Z+h3EWw@mail.gmail.com> <20181205085227.GG1543@Space.Net> <9ba948f9-f286-1016-2dbd-f7056a15e744@gmail.com> <20181206093154.GF1543@Space.Net> <CACL_3VGy6rjr10E4FK4xd4pq_-XSfP2VGhVqT+z-6Gm17z7okA@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering-06]
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On Thu, Dec 06, 2018 at 10:58:01AM -0800, C. M. Heard wrote: > [...]? I would certainly hope > that filtering UDP/443 is not done preemptively without actual evidence that > it is in fact a DDoS vector. I'd expect that networks that filter / rate-limit UDP do it mostly indiscriminately, and wouldn't already have exceptions for port 443. Exceptions would mostly be for things like DNS and NTP (not filtered, obviously, but maybe rate-limited). The port number / application has a lot to do with DDoS potention. E.g., DNS has great amplification potential, so it needs rate limits. TCP has much smaller amplification potential, and more of the TCP state machine is visible to the network than any non-TCP protocol's state machine, so maybe TCP SYNs and maybe even RSTs get rate-limited, but others do not. With TCP there's no need to discriminate by port number or know what the application protocol is. With UDP all you have is port numbers to discriminate by. Without exposing that sort of detail (SYN, RST, ...) to the network, I'd expect operators to scoff, and QUIC to have trouble in the public Internet until operators / kit learn how to handle QUIC. Not that we can expect kit to understand new upper level protocols, or new UDP application protocols, in with any kind of celerity. So it's all a mess :( Also, we can run HTTP and HTTPS over TCP on any ports, not just 80 and 443. That won't be true for QUIC. Each alternative port number will have to get middlebox relaxation de novo. That could be a problem, or maybe a blessing: maybe QUIC should mux multiple apps on one port. (QUIC muxes streams, but not apps). Then again, QUIC is done, right? Nico --
- [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf-ops… Michael Scharf
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christian Huitema
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christian Huitema
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Mark Andrews
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… C. M. Heard
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Mark Andrews
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … David Farmer
- Re: [OPSEC] Tsvart last call review of draft-ietf… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Randy Bush
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Christian Huitema
- [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of dra… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Brian E Carpenter
- [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call review of… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draft-ie… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Brian Trammell (IETF)
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Stewart Bryant
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Smith, Donald
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Ole Troan
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… C. M. Heard
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… C. M. Heard
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Smith, Donald
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] game over, EH [Tsvart last call revie… Nico Williams
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Nick Hilliard
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Fernando Gont
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] Tsvart last call review of … Gert Doering
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Pete Resnick
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] HbH flags [Tsvart last call review of… Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Joe Touch
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Nico Williams
- [OPSEC] OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-art] … Jared Mauch
- Re: [OPSEC] OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-a… Nico Williams
- Re: [OPSEC] [Tsv-art] game over, EH [Tsvart last … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [OPSEC] OT: TCP session lifetime - Re: [Tsv-a… Gert Doering
- [OPSEC] Engaging constructively [HbH flags [Tsvar… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Wes Hardaker
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Wes Hardaker
- Re: [OPSEC] ECMP [Tsvart last call review of draf… Fernando Gont