IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: Consensus Calls for Transport/TLS issues, post-Cupertino

"Martin Thomson" <mt@lowentropy.net> Mon, 28 October 2019 02:47 UTC

Return-Path: <mt@lowentropy.net>
X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE5601200FA for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 27 Oct 2019 19:47:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.701
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=hDotjiEB; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Jp6M7pb7
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AuO5BcBIuP5i for <quic@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 27 Oct 2019 19:47:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 526F2120152 for <quic@ietf.org>; Sun, 27 Oct 2019 19:47:12 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4AB6223A2; Sun, 27 Oct 2019 22:47:10 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 27 Oct 2019 22:47:10 -0400
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :cc:subject:content-type; s=fm3; bh=/x32oMJ9Y5TShDlrnIfW9amYZpOX BNFLAMhlDxMwJmg=; b=hDotjiEBdLpzBnArwsOT6oghMwrHLfzG3ApUPJpiR/L6 Iwox43qIjrTNcqxbs03UYMKEgfJXYumgHEYuKs5hF85S5h1EfkoX2VL3g4ljeNh1 IVd81hKiCHJZ/hWNKT7fq7uGbv5OgIHcBeyxhITooDSrxQYvqo8/9LwFsX4XqdDO X5CtySNAEsgoOoFI3z60W6w5VJiZSuYNWI/YOwAe/sDxR70jwV+0FVGeds7tNKwl vVvXdlywFdYPqMJ/G6/AvnhjuHj415jv+rIkCvtMW18rBrF1HLGr/m4mv8Wtgb7D /7b5fQl+GjKqGzQ3Zej8cD0IHkWWZJ1FeXfFuOvqYQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=/x32oM J9Y5TShDlrnIfW9amYZpOXBNFLAMhlDxMwJmg=; b=Jp6M7pb76HZnGBxNRCr7hP O81EQC5DYJL1B2sq/0yZbwPjY288s5V0ytwSAfrI917H1i6uo71De8k9m/Me2Zp4 hWonIN77YBjRT6QtfUurYHNl7uzrkX31Ei6v6vainTa/BTIKr/C4R9xzQsLdVmZJ cSczFltuCKynMfMZTN3bNW0oLoHgLVXFvlZvvqcKuntz8QpQmO+JY/i/P1dfF+K3 YbQiy6bnBs4pxyCT6HilQrSjLu76bIKxnTEmpQg0rbBjDVJ+Oh8SlMc3vobo20uO 3eMfQgERb42rmJdYrM71xwvJrUnArF9ogS5IVxaLXi5qdxPi8zmgLSs1+Dr7KFyg ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:rla2XT8X2IxThXsAkKrOS0R9zEELsg3XwYAW-zTvnn9jt-Ve8xo4eg>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrleekgdehudcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttdertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhht ihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucfrrg hrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvthenucevlhhu shhtvghrufhiiigvpedt
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:rla2XcBso-77QwOF-hWkYa8NDhDzHqcFzpKvor1Z37PUNPrGT0FVCQ> <xmx:rla2XTzXSD_bB1z75dsaQQOswAm4VqyIxiyCEYY4Hltf0tAzbqyx_w> <xmx:rla2XRQsR69DV2kTsoUX5hMLgywAE6u4I_TpofhUFLfXq4buiCeYvQ> <xmx:rla2XZ0h09t-OfMEwPwTbwHdmvCjk6iwHW3KJVvzdlZ-sFCgaPqvKQ>
Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 22C68E00A3; Sun, 27 Oct 2019 22:47:10 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-470-gedfae93-fmstable-20191021v4
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <4d408d7a-7c50-4ccc-a42b-fb2b71b0c507@www.fastmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CABcZeBM2QGC+wx-UUKMkJDqxKscOgJfhqwPhr7QXg3h-GpZwfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4D6397AF-B411-4E67-AFD2-76E8F2AD462C@mnot.net> <CANatvzwYA-NN+p5jLu4vpgKY_G-ZoUM03CacZWS2FAPyPqgiiw@mail.gmail.com> <BN3PR00MB0083E9A10A58F4CCC7B8A5C6B3680@BN3PR00MB0083.namprd00.prod.outlook.com> <22517ab5-9a6c-4486-b7ea-03badc064cbe@www.fastmail.com> <CANatvzx=RWB1Bio7tqX7nN_Vn1SfSaE69LZbuiU5pWeXP=BwNQ@mail.gmail.com> <DB6PR10MB176678E88FF226C2EB8FF78EAC680@DB6PR10MB1766.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <CACpbDccOe01VBjwwy=mdSi5nync8bXa506OMTbLPpBH-hoj4Sw@mail.gmail.com> <CAPDSy+4S06qHBbitdH07Ah6gJYV+ZMY4huYLVGw14Q-n6isCrg@mail.gmail.com> <BN6PR2201MB17008576E4F8400B5DDB696FDA6B0@BN6PR2201MB1700.namprd22.prod.outlook.com> <CACpbDcf+n47NXh8XMEKx6n1fiJPZ+WyuivNmuBy1vKhZYZe6Uw@mail.gmail.com> <CAM4esxQYyTQPpF13v0AT4R=TcFOa9=UCn0nWsiqwMReYFOYDYg@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBM2QGC+wx-UUKMkJDqxKscOgJfhqwPhr7QXg3h-GpZwfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 13:46:51 +1100
From: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>
To: 'Eric Rescorla' <ekr@rtfm.com>, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Cc: Jana Iyengar <jri.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Consensus Calls for Transport/TLS issues, post-Cupertino
Content-Type: text/plain
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/ONzire0WBRTPhOpB-rSRNEoOZTQ>
X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group <quic.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/quic/>
List-Post: <mailto:quic@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/quic>, <mailto:quic-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 02:47:15 -0000

On Mon, Oct 28, 2019, at 10:01, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> I think we're clearly going to need to spend some time on this. I don't 
> think the spec is satisfactory as-is: we should be designing a 
> transport that works for all use cases, not just H3. That said, I also 
> don't agree that we need an additional explicit signal. We have one, 
> it's called "ACK". We should figure out how to make that work.

I think that we've established that ACK doesn't work without something to push it along.

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email