RE: Request for Authenticated but not Encrypted Traffic

["Randy Armstrong (OPC)" <[e-mail]>]

At this point we have not determined that QUIC will actually be better than TCP for OT applications. That said, we see the potential because there is a need for UDP based protocols on some embedded devices because the OS does not support TCP and QUIC offers the potential for prioritizing traffic with multiple streams.

There is also some effort to deploy 5G networks within factories which would mean the lower latency recovering after IP address changes could be a benefit.

One risk for QUIC in this setting comes from the memory consumption needed to handle out of order/repeated messages. TCP has had decades to optimize this problem which means it could be more efficient.

If the WG already knows that QUIC will not work so well on low end embedded devices then we would like to learn more about the issues.

From: Roberto Peon <[e-mail]>
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2022 6:19 AM
To: Randy Armstrong (OPC) <[e-mail]>; Paul Vixie <[e-mail]>
Cc: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Request for Authenticated but not Encrypted Traffic

So I understand the background here:

Why do we need/want QUIC in this setting instead of TCP?

-=R
From: QUIC <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> on behalf of Randy Armstrong (OPC) <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Date: Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 1:13 PM
To: Paul Vixie <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Subject: RE: Request for Authenticated but not Encrypted Traffic
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Hi Paul,

Thanks for the support.

I think it is important to note: we already have our own TCP based protocol that supports authentication only. If QUIC cannot meet our requirements we may not recommend the use of QUIC at all.

Also note that factory owners sometimes owners disable security entirely if they have s/w that uses TLS/HTTPS with no sign only option. IOW, forcing people to use encryption when they have a compelling business justification to turn it off can result in more security risks - not less.

Regards,

Randy

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Vixie <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2022 4:31 AM
To: Randy Armstrong (OPC) <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Request for Authenticated but not Encrypted Traffic

i understand this ask and i resonate positively to it. however, i predict it will be seen as controversial in this community, based on my prior experience trying to get ssh/scp to support clear text for use inside a campus, datacenter, VPC, or VM server. i've also been trying to get an SMTP library's author team to have an option to ignore STARTTLS when talking to my own localhost. in each case i was told that the risk of accidental nonencryption across a wide area network was too great.
so, good luck with this use case. --vixie

re:

Randy Armstrong (OPC) wrote on 2022-09-29 05:31:
> The OPC Foundation is looking at deploying QUIC within factories as
> means for different OT devices to communicate with each other. In this
> environment, factory owners often wish to monitor traffic to check for
> anomalies. Encryption prevents this.
>
> For this reason, an authentication only option is essential to making
> QUIC a viable choice for communication within factories.
>
> Regards,
>
> Randy Armstrong
>
> OPC UA Security WG Chair
>


--
P Vixie