Re: [rfc-i] What do do about SVG

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Thu, 17 December 2020 01:11 UTC

Return-Path: <rfc-interest-bounces@rfc-editor.org>
X-Original-To: ietfarch-rfc-interest-archive@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietfarch-rfc-interest-archive@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEAE03A1347; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 17:11:27 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.199
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, MAILING_LIST_MULTI=-1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (2048-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9h5yRwHu9z19; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 17:11:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C1573A1342; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 17:11:24 -0800 (PST)
Received: from rfcpa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rfc-editor.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC84BF40764; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 17:11:15 -0800 (PST)
X-Original-To: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
Delivered-To: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rfc-editor.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06ECCF40764 for <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 17:11:14 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at rfc-editor.org
Authentication-Results: rfcpa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from rfc-editor.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (rfcpa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dc3Pe4oTr1Ac for <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 17:11:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-pj1-x102f.google.com (mail-pj1-x102f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102f]) by rfc-editor.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D14CBF40763 for <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 17:11:09 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-pj1-x102f.google.com with SMTP id hk16so2994165pjb.4 for <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 17:11:17 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YvPBkGZRbP4M7bzh4IhQ2dY5MW4w3oCl0Gj9v5rHOnA=; b=eX0FgXdB5Tb8zr+SbiEGhg1KjSl5jG7FzowgBadKWTFAskdnerzkJXBJdUKWnS//yw 0i4DgllSW1Nkrz2SQQMnnqL94tEnfhU8Z9gVYWZyBY3/Plm1yZSEmqFPrDzYKH4hJF/d ziT/1nifjWJKQsXB4eOX4NLOvbqRuzfkplFZdt3NGwuF/Y+9BK/NAJ0bWpyLLc0St+XP tb9i1wXtfr3yHvQd/hHDR1UUGi2r7CwiBynaHL+FOyrSBnBpmj3+mPrWlcmNdBYZbUQG 2FUUwsZV9L994i8AeUIhVfFhntQI2brMCnqs82akyZMclrB4RegnOfOuaqIdyy4vD1nq jxiQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=YvPBkGZRbP4M7bzh4IhQ2dY5MW4w3oCl0Gj9v5rHOnA=; b=guK4+WP7XGg0qEBehNa8yRD5wCbj/tWP3o/wqidRexBpUBCyimV9E5LfwXtgeT52mk fN4XLmf0ZA2QJjJsvpi3yNxMTco+BwvhZJlnStFXVaChp4QxqI4Nn9s/ry6uSr601yGi VGiK7YnUZ2SQ/3Cu5y8M9YIOpP1Szp7WDuHg1bcXiXarSBwZaibQEYMqu2GH7Uw26mhv oVsZ6BR9yTFf/gCpxXYRsfAhba0EmumtiGJIMuxU6dz04T99mre3f9uvvEu6ikTVPou6 b5ja1RRo7x1E9qecLvhb3TxZQC1krEbSz3jv/8Uur28op/hKr0yf6U5/xBvYsZNDa55A KlIw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530GwodlGYU+T9Zzo/Ml8HGPqBwWnilnVSzIGj1+EiDCpb59MwEr 7959XE/dgP9StyvV75tFR1FCwmrhNyrgiQ==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyrKDt7Z1zMY6NuAIcgnX6CDVIh5KyTq2zHaBQi2eSYM0bChhde0KqBn77Tdl9Sy9OJFlvCaA==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:76c2:b029:dc:1aa4:28f1 with SMTP id j2-20020a17090276c2b02900dc1aa428f1mr3994645plt.79.1608167475259; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 17:11:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p16sm3122617pju.47.2020.12.16.17.11.12 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 16 Dec 2020 17:11:14 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com>
References: <f564019-d8b1-76c2-2768-c135d834dc32@iecc.com> <763b8195-6139-fb20-aa4e-2b4d89b5681c@gmail.com> <7b8ef1d3-f33b-fc1b-88d3-c399c7cb6279@alum.mit.edu> <0d979304-d3d6-3b8b-acab-7cbc37276250@joelhalpern.com> <916267c9-bf4c-7c0c-eb99-a24e73fc22df@gmail.com> <dca14b37-525a-ac60-20c2-8c8cbfb2830d@nostrum.com> <d8d69f8b-8ff3-7f23-b228-02686df2340b@nthpermutation.com> <7884.1608156148@localhost>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1d9a115e-78cd-9767-10b6-89eec1495be9@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 14:11:10 +1300
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <7884.1608156148@localhost>
Content-Language: en-US
Subject: Re: [rfc-i] What do do about SVG
X-BeenThere: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "A list for discussion of the RFC series and RFC Editor functions." <rfc-interest.rfc-editor.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/options/rfc-interest>, <mailto:rfc-interest-request@rfc-editor.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.rfc-editor.org/pipermail/rfc-interest/>
List-Post: <mailto:rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>
List-Help: <mailto:rfc-interest-request@rfc-editor.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest>, <mailto:rfc-interest-request@rfc-editor.org?subject=subscribe>
Cc: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Errors-To: rfc-interest-bounces@rfc-editor.org
Sender: rfc-interest <rfc-interest-bounces@rfc-editor.org>

On 17-Dec-20 11:02, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> Michael StJohns <msj@nthpermutation.com> wrote:
>     >> Perhaps rather than using syntax to enforce policy, we could shift to using
>     >> editorial control to enforce policy. That is, we specify that non-ASCII
>     >> diagrams in RFCs are in full-fledged SVG, which has really, *really* good
>     >> support in a lot of tools. And then put have in place instructions to the
>     >> authors and to the RPC that describe the policy restrictions (such as those
>     >> I list above), along with a tool -- in the style of id-nits -- that helps
>     >> identify (in an advisory way) when those policies might not have been
>     >> followed.
> 
>     > I think this is an interesting idea that misses at least one point of the SVG
>     > profile.  E.g.  Your tool might be able to produce SVG that the RPC's tools
>     > might not be able to render.
> 
>     > Before we head off in this direction, perhaps someone can do a table that has
>     > the tools proposed for authoring on one axis, and the tools proposed for
>     > rendering on the second axis (could be the same group) and see if the export
>     > from one will work as an import for the other.
> 
> To first order, the "rendering" will be browsers, and we have pretty good
> interoperability there.

Yes. While Mike is correct in principle, I think that rendering will not
be a problem in practice, simply because browsers have to render whatever
is out there in the real world anyway.

(Note however that "Save as SVG" is definitely not guaranteed to
save the same SVG as the rendering tool loaded. SVG -> screen -> SVG
is very likely to change the SVG slightly.)

> The problem is that the second order group is black and white printers
> printing paper which will be viewed by people with various amounts of
> differentially abled vision.

Yes, hence the ban on colour and greyscale.

   Brian

> 
> The archival goals of our series say that we need to accomodate the second
> order group.
> 
> So you are right that we need to match tools to "viewers", but our problem is
> that the viewers in the second group are difficult to simulate today.
> 
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting )
>            Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> rfc-interest mailing list
> rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest
> 

_______________________________________________
rfc-interest mailing list
rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org
https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest